A good day for Parliamentary democracy

[DraytonBoy]

Missiles are sent and a few buildings are destroyed along with innocent civilians. Then what?

Cameron, Obama and Hollande should be pushing the UN and the Arab League to act rather than threaten to launch missiles. So many countries and terrorist organisations are already involved in Syria and IMO it's crazy to even think about joining in.

[Russethouse]

Post WW2 is there any conflict we have been engaged in where we have made a real difference....where what we left hasn't been as bad, or nearly as bad as the regime when we started? Maybe Kosavo ?

Get rid of one regime and the likelihood is that another just as nasty will soon take its place

I suspect the British electorate knows in its heart what the Prime Minister seems loathe to admit :we are a small country with diminishing powers in a financial mess and with a much depleted armed force - we simply are not in a position to be a referee on the world stage. Furthermore the 'shall we shan't we' scenario only seems to come up in countries where there is oil yet we stand by and watch other atrocities ....... So the argument for action on humanitarian grounds is rather hollow

[powerdesal]

The Gulf States and Saudi Arabia etc have large military forces, well equipped with the best that money can buy yet they are not prepared (it seems) to intervene in support of their brother Muslims.

Why do you think that is?

Are they scared that supporting the 'wrong' side will lead to confrontation with Iran which will adversely affect their income from oil sales or are they perhaps quite happy to allow the Syrian problem to continue / escalate which will push oil prices higher and increase their income.

Western countries can never win in the Arab world. It's a heads you lose / tails you lose situation. Neither can the Western countries afford the blood and treasure required.

Whilst it is true that thousands of innocent people are dying in Syria it is a hard fact that it is not our fight, ( neither is Afghanistan for that matter.)

[Quillan]

I am sure I read somewhere that Libyan oil production has dropped virtually to zero, certainly down to an amount that makes it the lowest producer by far. I seem to remember that the reason for this is that each 'rebel' faction has taken control of different fields but they can't maintain the equipment etc and just don't know what to do with the stuff. The 'West' got involved in Libya and what has been the result there, caos.

Having the best equipment does not necessarily mean you know how to use it properly.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Having the best equipment does not necessarily mean you know how to use it properly.

[/quote]

 

How true. I have some experience to support that statement[:D]

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Richard your starting to leave your intelligence behind and become another American drone (no pun intended Wooly). It is right he 'dithers', this is a massive decision and he should listen to all advice and not just Kerry's. More importantly he should listen to the people, you know, those who put him where he is.

 

 

[/quote]

I think my dislike and distrust of Obama affect my opinions of things he does (and doesn't do). Please accept my apologies. I'm counting down the years and am hoping Chris Christie runs for president. Although run might not be the best word in his case.

[idun]

 Chris Christie, yeah, why not. But a heart attack waiting to happen sooner rather than later. Especially if you take into account how quickly all the Presidents have gone grey very quickly, once in office the pressures must be enormous.

At least today, Russia has made more reasonable noises about where they stand on this.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Maybe, maybe not. He's still in a very high pressure job now as governor of NJ. I'd certainly vote for him, he's one of the straightest talking politicians I've ever known.

[Russethouse]

Have you travelled much within the USA Mr Couer de Lion?

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

A little, why?

[Russethouse]

 I just think its so diverse and what may seem 'right' in NJ in say Boston or Charleston it may look very different

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

So to be able to vote, everyone needs to travel the entire country to understand every facet of American life? Doesn't make sense.

[Quillan]

A lot of politicians, not just American, look good when they want something. I thought Miliband put forward a very good argument (I watched it live) however that does not make me like the man. I guess it depends on the individual and what their needs and aspirations are that makes a certain politician appeal to them.

More interesting today where the results in polls taken in the US concerning use of limited force in Syria. It would appear from the results that the majority of the public do not want involvement at the moment but may reconsider depending on level of proof etc. What they seem to wonder about is why the 'proof' will be offered to a closed door senate as it is restricted. Surely that leaves everyone wondering, not only as to what it is but that it really exists. My fear is that many think this is some sort of computer game, you can go off shooting and if you're wrong you can just reset the game back to the start. This you cannot do, we are talking about peoples lives and to go around killing people make them no different to those, whoever they are, that used the gas.

There is also a certain amount political stuff in all this. As some secretary to the president (it was on the BBC news website so you will have to go look for it) said by doing nothing having said they were going to bomb belittles America in the eyes of the world and reduces its power. I think thats misjudged, I don't think it right to do nothing in general but those that exercise prudence and act only when all the facts are known show good sense and gain more respect. It is better to be respected than feared.

If Russia and China can be shown the proof (whatever it is and if it exists) then decide to vote the same way as the rest of the UN security members I think it will force Asad to come to the table and talk thus stopping any future bloodshed. America also has to swallow and allow Iran to sit at the table as well.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]So to be able to vote, everyone needs to travel the entire country to understand every facet of American life? Doesn't make sense.

[/quote]If that were a legal requirement to vote in the UK then the electorate would be much reduced. The different parts of the UK have relatively little understanding of how people in other areas live. Just look at the so-called North-South divide as an example.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]So to be able to vote, everyone needs to travel the entire country to understand every facet of American life? Doesn't make sense.

[/quote]If that were a legal requirement to vote in the UK then the electorate would be much reduced. The different parts of the UK have relatively little understanding of how people in other areas live. Just look at the so-called North-South divide as an example.

[/quote]

Exactly. Every voter votes based on their own needs, their own culture, and own perception of prospective leaders and parties. That's the whole point in democracy, the populous comes together collectively and votes based on their own needs, beliefs and perceptions.

[Russethouse]

The point is really whether the candidate can understand the different needs of the people, or appeal enough to to what they perceive as being the common denominator.

Can Mr Christie ?

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Russethouse"]The point is really whether the candidate can understand the different needs of the people, or appeal enough to to what they perceive as being the common denominator.

Can Mr Christie ?[/quote]

Who knows?

Obama clearly can't.

[Quillan]

I think you will find they are all pretty much the same once they get in to power.

[Thibault]

I think Mr Obama has dug himself into a big hole with his 'red line' comment some time ago. As of last night, he seems to be trying to say it isn't his red line, nor the US's red line, but the world's and therefore it is up to the world to do something.......

Of course, there is no need for the UK PM to get Parliament's approval for military action - he or she can use the Royal Prerogative. It was Blair who came up with the idea when he wished to join the US war in Iraq. And we all know where that lead - so Iraq casts a long shadow.

It seems that Miliband's change of mind came about when the Labour whips told him his own party wouldn't support the government's proposal - so political decision rather than principle......

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Quillan"]I think you will find they are all pretty much the same once they get in to power.[/quote]

Sadly, this is probably the truest statement in this thread.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"][quote user="Russethouse"]The point is really whether the candidate can understand the different needs of the people, or appeal enough to to what they perceive as being the common denominator.

Can Mr Christie ?[/quote]

Who knows?

Obama clearly can't.

[/quote]

I'm interested to see if Hilary Clinton will actually stand next time round.......not sure about Mr Christie but I expect I'll hear more about him when I'm in the States in October travelling down 95........

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

I think she should have stood this time instead of Obama to be honest. It might be too late for her by 2016. Too much damage done.

[Russethouse]

I think she may be a bit long in the tooth, but on the other hand that means she s experienced........

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Another classic Bill Maher observation

"The

executions by rebels I read about yesterday - SO much better than gas!

Yes, lets back these assholes. Why? Because we're the good people!"

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Another classic Bill Maher observation

"The

executions by rebels I read about yesterday - SO much better than gas!

Yes, lets back these assholes. Why? Because we're the good people!"[/quote]That quote sums up why I think the west would achieve nothing positive by going in. At least Obama is taking some time before going in.

 I am not convince that many Syrian civilians want to be killed by US missiles/bombs. Horrific as chemical weapons are, any intervention should not kill/injure civilians.