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Basic skills lacking in England


NormanH
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Years ago when I did my teacher training, we were told under no circumstances to correct any pupil's spelling or grammar as that would damage their creative ability, so it's no surprise that whole generations of people have emerged from the educational system unable to write correctly.

And of course, some of these are now teachers.

If you want to see some wonky English, just look at the TES teachers' forum!
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[quote user="Thibault"]Years ago when I did my teacher training, we were told under no circumstances to correct any pupil's spelling or grammar as that would damage their creative ability, so it's no surprise that whole generations of people have emerged from the educational system unable to write correctly. And of course, some of these are now teachers. If you want to see some wonky English, just look at the TES teachers' forum![/quote]

Yes and I am a rare survivor of that awful progressive education, were I to have become a victim of it then this post would have read like the previous one, the manner in which most of my peers from school now write [:(]

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[quote user="NormanH"]Not that France or the USA are much better...
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/08/england-young-people-league-table-basic-skills-oecd

http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/boosting-skills-essential-for-tackling-joblessness-and-improving-well-being.htm
[/quote]

I think that there no conflict between boosting skills and encouraging creativity. I'm all for making certain that young people can use language and numerical skills appropriately. When I worked as a lecturer in a university business school, I made it clear - by including as criteria in marking schemes - that assignments with poor spelling or grammar would fail. I had battles with students who believed that eventual employment in marketing or human resources would not require any numerical competence.

However, I heard a report on the radio recently about the relative number of patents being granted in the United Kingdom compared with Korea and other Asian countries, and Korea fared poorly in the comparison. An implication was that the educational system in Britain encouraged students to think divergently and to challenge accepted ideas, whereas the Asian model encouraged conformity.

I suspect the OECD survey measured that which is easy to measure and avoided concepts which are more complex.

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Agreed Clark - I don't trust reports like this - how can they possibly test so many people and get valid results, comparing people speaking different languages etc?

One report refers to "millions of adults don't know how to use a computer mouse" - what does that mean?  How many is millions?

Even within one city in UK it's not straightforward to get valid figures for this.

Another point - looking back to my school days, if a child couldn't manage with the 3 Rs he/she just didn't go to school.

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It's not just this report though. Pretty much every report you see come out puts the Fins at the top, and the UK, US and the like well down the tables. The Fins do have an excellent system, but they have fewer kids and are able to spend more time with the strugglers to help them come up. The result is that pretty much all kids come through with similar abilities and education, almost clone like I would imagine.

I don't know about the UK system, but the one over here in New Jersey is not the greatest. It's all about testing, testing, and more testing. Very little in the way of actually learning anything useful. Teachers getting tenure (thereby ensuring job security) doesn't help much either.

But, it is the Guardian, the left wing version of the Mail.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Not that France or the USA are much better...
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/08/england-young-people-league-table-basic-skills-oecd

http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/boosting-skills-essential-for-tackling-joblessness-and-improving-well-being.htm
[/quote]

So why the headline, why not basic skills missing in lots of countries?  [8-)]

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Because it is true. According to the first link "Out of 24 nations, young adults in England (aged 16-24) rank 22nd for

literacy and 21st for numeracy. England is behind Estonia, Australia,

Poland and Slovakia in both areas."

I imagine that the majority of posters here are more concerned with the UK than with other countries that do almost as badly.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Because it is true. According to the first link "Out of 24 nations, young adults in England (aged 16-24) rank 22nd for literacy and 21st for numeracy. England is behind Estonia, Australia, Poland and Slovakia in both areas."
I imagine that the majority of posters here are more concerned with the UK than with other countries that do almost as badly.
[/quote]

"Because it's true", if you believe that then you are not as bright as I thought you are. Surveys are always suspect, as if you ask the right people the right question you will get the answer you want, so anybody with an agenda can find a survey to support their pet subject. For someone who's constantly moaning about the lack of French threads on this forum, you seem to take great delight in publicising any news that shows the UK in a bad light. Of course that is your right, but you must expect cheap shots to be challenged.  [:D]

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What's meant by "the developed world"? Acc. to Wiki there are 193 nations in the UN. 193-24 = 169 . What about the others?

Another point is that some languages are easier to read and spell than others.

But I agree with Thibault's point , about being told not correcting spelling and grammar mistakes in the ?70s. I came across that. ( some of my job involved assessing reading spelling and maths problems and planning remedial programmes.)

Teachers in England have had so many recent changes of policy method curriculum etc demanded from them that I'm surprised anyone wants to teach there now.

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My last teaching in UK was many years ago but even then I was horrified at the low level of numeracy and literacy of students coming from school or tech colleges to uni (albeit the uni from hell). They had no rigour, nor logic, nor concentration.

But then, in a world where celebs of the most brainless kind are held up as role models, what do you expect? And where Coronation Street and Eastenders are utterly filled with underachieving mindless morons, how do you expect kids to think of basic academic achievement as having any importance?

As regards doubting the figures, years ago the BBC always denied that media violence was linked to actual violence, because it could not be scientifically proven. But we all knew it was true.
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Fab post, Wools, couldn't have said it better myself![:D]

And OH told me that Prince William (no less) had to read what was a very short, simple speech!  So clearly NOT a problem mainly confined to the despised "council estates"!

Also, it was noted at the time of his son's birth, that he seemed to have a problem with understanding the word "legacy"!  You'd think that he, of the whole of the UK, WOULD know what that word means?[6]

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