So, these immigrants....

[YCCMB]

Well, the past 24 hours or so has produced some interesting reactions to the Government-of-the-Day's attempts to assuage the UKIP/Daily Mail contingent. You now can't move for GP's popping up all over the place, saying that it's not nearly as bad as Nigel and the Mail would have us believe, and that people coming to the UK as "health tourists" can be counted on the fingers of one finger. They then add that most of the non-UK nationals they see in their surgeries are decent, law abiding people, most of whom are working and (shock, horror) paying TAX! So, no need for GP's to take a sledgehammer to crack the nut of health tourism and abuse of the system. Who knew?

And there appears to be mounting dissent all over the place. "Who? Us? Check people's bona-fides? But it's not our job!" Of course not. These people should have been stopped at the border - only a lot of them probably never went through the border by conventional means, and the ones that did clear immigration probably didn't leave contact details for when their visas expired, so it's hardly likely that the Borders Agency can go chasing after them. Perhaps it should be down to the police, who, after all, haven't got anything better to do... But, anyhow, as it turns out, there's a dawning realisation - at least among the medical profession - that the lines being fed to us by UKIP and the DM are, in fact, a gross exaggeration of the scale of the problem.

I may not be a likely contender for the Mastermind title, but I could have told them that.

[Patf]

So I heard on the Radio 4 news this morning.

The new lady interviewer spoke to a lady London GP and would hardly let her get a word in to say that for her, it was only a minor problem.

How do you stop the media from brainwashing the public?

[nomoss]

[quote user="Patf"]So I heard on the Radio 4 news this morning.
The new lady interviewer spoke to a lady London GP and would hardly let her get a word in to say that for her, it was only a minor problem.
How do you stop the media from brainwashing the public?
[/quote]

You can't, and every government has to have a cause which will raise indignation to divert attention from their incompetency.

Argentina has the Malvinas, Spain has Gibraltar, Scotland has the Brits stealing their oil, and the UK has johnny foreigner coming over to cheat the honest Brits[:D]

Edit: Change "Maldives" to "Malvinas" - getting old and useless[:(] (Thanks, Araucaria)

 

[Quillan]

I love the way that the UK press say that the UK applies all EU legislation where as France etc 'cherry picks' what it wants and does not want. Well so does the UK and this s a classic example of the UK deciding not to adopt EU legislation with regards to EU nationals going to the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

Had the UK decided to accept this legislation then with regards to EU nationals all this would have gone away a long time ago.

None EU immigrants who are in the UK legally with a visa are required by UK law to carry an ID card by the way, something not commonly mentioned. If they are caught without one then they are taken to the nearest police station then handed over to the Border Control Agency.

[Araucaria]

[quote user="nomoss"]

You can't, and every government has to have a cause which will raise indignation to divert attention from their incompetency.

Argentina has the Maldives, Spain has Gibraltar, Scotland has the Brits stealing their oil, and the UK has johnny foreigner coming over to cheat the honest Brits[:D]

 

 

[/quote]

Argentina has the Maldives ????? That'll be news in Malé.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]I love the way that the UK press say that the UK applies all EU legislation where as France etc 'cherry picks' what it wants and does not want. Well so does the UK and this s a classic example of the UK deciding not to adopt EU legislation with regards to EU nationals going to the UK.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

Had the UK decided to accept this legislation then with regards to EU nationals all this would have gone away a long time ago.

None EU immigrants who are in the UK legally with a visa are required by UK law to carry an ID card by the way, something not commonly mentioned. If they are caught without one then they are taken to the nearest police station then handed over to the Border Control Agency.

[/quote]

Erm...no, they aren't. I have a number of Russian students and many Japanese. None of them are required to carry an identity card. Nor, indeed, are any of my American students.

[idun]

Betty, are they issued with biometric residence permits though????

Why does anyone move to a very small island group on the edge of the massive land mass that is Europe and Asia????? Does it make any sense at all. What do they want. There is a very small island group on the edge of the land mass that is Asia and Europe, do people try and get to Japan????? I really don't know.

[YCCMB]

I guess you have to take into account that "immigrants" fall into many categories. Many of the ones with whom I come into contact are here as employees of huge international or multinational companies and already, for a number of years now, they've been having to jump through hoops (or their employers have, anyway) to get them here. Only yesterday, one of my Russian students - who is here on a Cat.2 visa with her husband and children - was telling me that her husband's company want her husband to return to Russia to take charge of a special project...only her 17-year-old daughter is just starting AS levels, having been put back a year when they arrived in the UK 3 years ago. Now, in order to complete her education it's practically imperative that she stays here, because she would have to go back about 3 years if she were to return to Russia, as she's missed the opportunity to sit all the critical exams in that system. So, the family is looking at having to live with the husband back in Russia and the wife and kids staying here, which in turn means they will no longer qualify for a Cat. 2 visa and will have to apply for a Cat.4 visa. What does THAT mean? Well, there's a whopping financial requirement for eligibility, so they will have to ensure that they have enough money here in the UK to qualify, and on top of that, as a holder of a Cat.4 visa, the wife will have no entitlement to work here.

Quite a few of my American clients have applied for, and obtained, British citizenship. They're here for the long term, building business across Europe for their company. They've recently bought out a French company and are trying to get to grips with French business...they're offering brilliant job opportunities and great salaries, and their policy is to promote from within. So, they've had some senior vacancies in France, at great money. Could they get any of the existing French staff to apply? No. Why? No-one would relocate to other parts of France, so they had to open up the vacancies to the wider group and ended up bringing an American from Ireland, a Haitian from the US and a Canadian. I can't begin to tell you the trouble they're having with visa and work permits for that lot (all French speakers, BTW).

As for the rest of the people I meet well, a lot are young Spaniards, Greeks and Italians, and it doesn't take a genius to know why they come, but the thing is they do, and when they get here they get jobs. All of them, without exception. They work in pubs, bars, hotels, restaurants, warehouses, shops, offices, as au pairs.....and when you're facing 50% unemployment among your age group at home, why not take a chance and go where there IS work?

The Japanese? Well, they work for a Japanese company. How many British Japanese speakers has anyone met? Sometimes there's no way round letting people some in, because there's no-one here who can do what's required.

I've never met anyone who has a biometric ID card or visa, I don't think. But now you've brought it up, I'll ask...

[Quillan]

France I believe now uses biometric ID cards, certainly Belgium does (I have seen one).

Many countries now use biometric passports. America was the first, I believe they invented it. The visa stamp is electronically linked to the passport before the person enters the UK and there are special conditions for American citizens, shame they are not fully reciplicated.

Anybody from a country that is a member of the Schengen area does not require a visa. There are three countries Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Norway who are members but not members of the EU who also do not require a visa to enter the UK, just a valid passport. This is because they are members of the EU trading organisation (they pay the same per head as a EU member state but don't get EU representation).

So depending on which country they come from they either have to carry an ID card or some form of identity at all times. I suspect that many don't bother especially if the only way to meet the requirement is to carry their passport (theft, loosing it etc). But then technically that is the same as France although I suspect many Brits living in France either don't know this, can't be bothered or don't carry it in case it gets stolen or lost. I am sure other countries have the same rules.

[nomoss]

I don't know how accurate this article is, http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/feb/25/eu-citizens-britain-id-cards , but it says:

Residence documents, including registration certificates, for citizens from other EU states living in Britain are currently not mandatory but are used to prove the right of permanent residence in the UK if the holder wants to apply for a residence permit for any family member who does not hold an EU passport.

It also states:

Under European law, a mandatory registration scheme could not just apply to Bulgaria and Romania, whose citizens get the freedom to work throughout the EU without restriction from the end of this year. It would have to cover the citizens of all other EU countries resident in Britain

Actually, I believe that under European law, if this involved the mandatory carrying of an ID card or similar, it would have to cover the citizens of all EU countries resident in Britain, including British subjects, as no distinction is allowed in such requirements. This is the reason French and Spanish residency cards for residents from other EU countries were scrapped back in the 1990's. (They were probably scrapped in other countries too, but I only know about France and Spain from direct experience.)

As mentioned in the article, (from 28 March 2007) Spain reintroduced registration for EU citizens staying more than 3 months, but instead of a card they now issue a certificate printed on A4 paper, which as far as I know does not have to be carried all the time, as once registered, the person's details can be verified via the national computer.

By the way, unlike many such systems in other countries, the Spanish national computer works.[;-)]

Edit: Add condition for not meeting EU legal requirements

Edit: Now (since April 2012) the A4 certificate has been replaced by a small card, which has no photograph nor fingerprint, and which has no value unless accompanied by a valid passport. The card is valid for life unless one is a temporary visitor, e.g. a student or short-term worker.

The basis for requiring registration is that it is not a means of identification, but a means of establishing that the person:

a) has the economic means to sustain their residency in Spain

and b) has access to medical insurance (either private or public) while in Spain

Maybe it won't be long before France introduces something similar.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

I have a biometric green card. It has an impression of my finger print on it.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Many countries now use biometric passports. America was the first, I believe they invented it.

[/quote]

Even the UK...I've had one for the last two years.

[Quillan]

Well there you go, something you have in common with me then and a few million others. [;-)]

[YCCMB]

Exactly. Which made me wonder why you mentioned it as if it was the discovery of penicillin.[:P]

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Exactly. Which made me wonder why you mentioned it as if it was the discovery of penicillin.[:P]

[/quote]

Perhaps if you bothered to read other peoples posts you might understand the context in which I mentioned it and why. Try Idun's for example. [kiss]

[idun]

I am not talking about legal immigrants, studying under limited visas or in the UK for work. I'm talking about people who would rather risk their lives to escape life in the own country, instead of risking their lives in their own country to make it a decent place to live.

And the british government expected just about every fit man and some women too, to risk their life for their country to guard it's liberty and freedoms. And very very few objected to this, the whole population knew that sometimes a fight is necessary and there would be deaths and loss of loved ones, but no choice. The only way we get freedoms is to fight to get them and fight to keep them, they are never 'given'.

I fear my freedoms are now being eroded by the backdoor, by people who could not be bothered to fight chez eux, but use our good laws against us to inflict their culture and beliefs in 'my' society'. I always doubt that males will ever be particularly touched by this, women always will be, because there are very societies in what I'll call the third world, that empowers women.

And this morning on the radio,  they were saying that accommodation provided for asylum

seekers was not up to scratch. Well much accommodation for british

citizens who find themselves in diminished circumstances isn't either,

and as far as I am concerned it has not got to be any better than any

that of any british citizen. G4S amongst others is paid millions to

accommodate such people. If they are not spending the money properly,

then that is quite another thing.

Re biometric passports. Well no one else has picked up on this, but the fingerprint thing, I have never given a finger print in my life. All french people do and have done for at least the last 32 years and probably far far longer, to have their ID cards. Makes one wonder why the police/gendarmes in France ever have any trouble finding most criminals.

So some european countries want finger prints, some don't. But for me, it is a step too far.

And the mention of Japan, well it is another small island group on the edge of the biggest land mass on the planet. Not about speaking the language, a lot of asylum speakers who arrive in the UK do not speak english.

I am feeling particularly angry about this at the moment. Wound up by a very posh woman from some sort of association of immigrants on the news last night, who said that we should never say 'illegal' immigrants. Well if someone should be chez eux and are in any other country illegally then they are illegal immigrants.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="You can call me Betty"]Exactly. Which made me wonder why you mentioned it as if it was the discovery of penicillin.[:P]

[/quote]

Perhaps if you bothered to read other peoples posts you might understand the context in which I mentioned it and why. Try Idun's for example. [kiss]

[/quote]

Your pomposity is only eclipsed by your own stupidity, it would appear. Not only did I read Idun's post, I replied to it, at some length. Perhaps if YOU had bothered to read THAT, you wouldn't keep making such a plonker of yourself.

[Quillan]

On second thoughts I can't be bothered, have a nice day.