Perhaps we should reflect on this

[richard51]

[quote user="nomoss"]....and a group with the same ethnic

origin, led by another bunch of fanatics, who believe in a different supernatural

being, claim they have sole rights to the territory, and want to annihilate the

first group?[/quote]

This is the last vestiges of colonialism: white, largely European, settlers wanting to settle and ethnically cleanse the land of its indigenous population - the Palestinians.  If some foreigner came and took my land, my olive trees, killed my mother and father, imprisoned and tortured my brother, bombed my children - I'd feel pretty angry too.

Mrs 51

[nomoss]

You have edited my post in your quote by only using half of it and adding the letter "H" at the beginning. Please correct this.

[richard51]

I quoted the relevant half - which I am perfectly entitled to do.  Unless you are suggesting forum users can't read?? ;)

Mrs 51

[nomoss]

Thank you for correcting the quote. It didn't make proper sense before.

Britain actually sleepwalked into effectively helping to create Israel. The concept was based on finding somewhere for the victims after the war.

I don't think anyone foresaw/could have forseen anyone with a remotely Jewish background, from any country, being able to reside there simply on the strength of a letter fom their Rabbi.

[Quillan]

See this is where I am at odds with R51 because the quotes are from a pro Palestine group in the US. The bit that gets me is that the terrorist attacks on Israel seem to be ignored completely like there is only one direction and it isn't. I am not trying to justify anything just saying that you have to look at both sides. Below is an alternative source to WiKi as some think WiKi is always wrong which says that there  have been 1,038 attacks in Israel and lists them by year with the numbers killed and injured and then by month within year. This is a website that covers many subjects not just Israel v Palastine (and the other way round) terrorism

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html

For those that don't mind WiKi (the sources of their information are at the bottom of the their page).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

You can add to that the morter and rocket attacks. The WiKi list gives a breakdown of where the bombs were and how many killed etc. Many were either in shopping malls, by bus stops and in some case student buses containing children. I certainly remember seeing the results of one of the bus attacks where children were killed a few years ago as it was on TV.

If you compare the numbers against Palistinians being killed then it would of course seem that Israel is more 'efficient' but it cannot be denied that different Palistine organisations have killed quite a lot of Israelis over the years. It is not just a one sided story.

When we are asked to think how would we feel then think about how you and your family needs to be within a few hundred metres of a bomb shelter all the time in case a rocket or mortar drops on you. Not all Israelis would want the Palistines wiped off the face of the earth and likewise I would suggest that not all Palistinians want Israel wiped off the face of the earth which is why they need to sit down round a table and find away.

By the way Israel will counter claim about peace treaties by saying that they have agreed to them many times and every time the Palistine terrorist have broken them.

Again I repeat you can go round and round in circles and stand there pointing fingures at this group or that group forever as meanwhile people are dying and by the time we all here agree there will be nobody left to care about.

 

[richard51]

I presume you refer to the stats website I referenced. It is actually an Israeli website which the Israeli government often uses.

[richard51]

Sorry you may be refering to Mondoweiss.

This is from its own description:

:

About Mondoweiss

Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American

foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish

perspective.

It has four principal aims:

1. To publish important developments touching on Israel/Palestine, the
   American Jewish community and the shifting debate over US foreign policy
   in a timely fashion.
2. To publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on these important issues.
3. To foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy.
4. To offer alternatives to pro-Zionist ideology as a basis for American Jewish identity.

[Quillan]

Yes I read that as well. My real point being is that you never seem to acknowledge that Palestinian terrorists, freedom fighters or whatever you wish to call them have blown up by various methods Israeli non military people even when there is so much evidence. I am not trying to justify the Israeli attacks I am just saying it happens just like the IRA and the UDF in NI in the past. It is wrong but it has and it continues to happen year in year out just as the killing of innocent Palestinians continues. Basically the theme throughout your posts is the Palestinians have done absolutely nothing wrong and it is a one way street Israelis killing Palestinians who have never hurt a fly which history shows is simply not correct. Once pro Palestinian supporters accept that fact then perhaps we can all start to move forward as one to do something to stop this terrible killing on both side from continuing. Personally I am not willing to do anything until that happens.

[richard51]

I hope that the theme is more that its disproportionate.

Not wishing to justify, but OH did post on the international legal situation a while back on this tread -  ie Israel have no right to attack Gaza as it is occupied by them and also the occupied do have a right to defend themselves. This justification by Israel, US and UK is just not correct.

I'm sad to see that you have no desire to do anything. Every day now for a while I have listened to the tragedies/atrocities unfold in Gaza, and each day have thought that surely people will think enough is enough and force Israel to stop.

 

[Quillan]

In the nicest possible way I say you still refuse to acknowledge that Israelis have also been killed in over 1,000 attacks by various Palestinian terrorist organisations over the years? Again I am not asking this to try and justify anything just an admittance that it has happened is all I want from you and others like you as typical Palestinian peace supporters. Once that happens I believe that I personally can move forward and even write a letter to my MEP BUT it would be along the lines that all killing stops on both sides.

[richard51]

Its pretty damned obvious that they have. The point is how many.

There - are you happy now.

[Quillan]

Somewhere between 800 and 1,100 depending which website you chose to believe. Not quite on the 'industrial' scale of the Palestinian civilians killed I would agree.

Yes, thank you.

[richard51]

Quillan - 3 - that's THREE Israeli civilians killed - one of which was a Bedouin that Israel refused to provide shelters.  Along with 40 some soldiers.  This compares with 1,361 Palestinians of which 315 are kids, 166 are women, 58 elderly men, 15 medical staff and 6,780 injured including 2,307 kids.  More UN workers have died than Israelis. More internationals have died than Israelis.

No offence Quillan but you are taking the proverbial.

This is genocide - and you sit there and pontificate.

Let's imagine for one minute that the situation was reversed - there would be hell up.  But of course we are comparing the 'chosen' and their blood is more valuable, their lives more precious.

Mrs 51

[Quillan]

You know I was starting to feel more sympathy towards the Palestinians there for a while and was willing to leave the conversation at that point. I said that I asked the question not for any reason other than just an admittance that Palestine terrorist organizations (some of who incidentally have advocated genocide against the Jews but that was not the point at the time when I asked) killed innocent people in Israel as well. There was no try to score cheap points. My actual point being is that all killing is wrong regardless of sex, religion, ethnicity etc. the quantity is not important (in some context) as just one death is wrong. What I feel (and am willing to be corrected on) is that you believe the killing of innocent people in Israel is not important only those being killed in Palestine are.

Another question then for you, are the UN, especially those working in Palestine liars?

Also

Would you feel the same way and be so passionate if the quantities of killings and situation were reversed?

I am not pontificating I am simply asking very basic questions of an expert to get a more clearer view from an alternative perspective rather than rush off blindly like a chicken with its head cut off. Only ny calmly debating can you understand both points of view and hopefully draw the right conclusion.

I thought your last sentence was not really warranted or required because in any human who has any morals (and as I have said so many times) any killing is wrong.

 

[Russethouse]

[quote user="richard51"]Quillan - 3 - that's THREE Israeli civilians killed - one of which was a Bedouin that Israel refused to provide shelters.  Along with 40 some soldiers.  This compares with 1,361 Palestinians of which 315 are kids, 166 are women, 58 elderly men, 15 medical staff and 6,780 injured including 2,307 kids.  More UN workers have died than Israelis. More internationals have died than Israelis.

No offence Quillan but you are taking the proverbial.

This is genocide - and you sit there and pontificate.

Let's imagine for one minute that the situation was reversed - there would be hell up.  But of course we are comparing the 'chosen' and their blood is more valuable, their lives more precious.

Mrs 51




[/quote] Your last comments are perilously close to breaking the forums code of conduct, please be careful...I know you hold strong views and I don't want to have to lock the thread.....just choose your words carefully please

[richard51]

This is the value of Palestinians lives in the eyes of Jewish Israelis:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-is-a-palestinian-life-worth/ Quote "...their lives are not worth a dime, their lives will always be worth less, if anything at all."

This is the view of a member of the Knesset, Ayelet Shaked:

"They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists.  They are all out enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the little terrorists otherwise more little snakes will be raised there."

One town council in Israel put up a banner saying "Go and rape their mothers then come back to your mothers."

Mrs 51

[Russethouse]

There are extremists on both sides....I do not condone for one moment what Israel are doing, in fact I disagree profoundly,  but Hamas was democratically elected and my understanding is that peace with Israel was never on their agenda. 

[woolybanana]

Hamas has enforced its rule over Gaza with the gun and the baseball bat. I am not sure that most Palestinians would have supported them if a decent, viable peace offer had been on the table.

The encouragement for Hamas comes from weapons supplies from Iran and others which have been smuggled over the borders under the closed eyes of the post Mubarak Egyptian regime. The new, army led regime is less accommodating as far as I know.

[NickP]

A report by Jack Moor International Business Times :

El Salvador has joined four Latin American countries in recalling its Israel ambassador from Tel Aviv in protest at the military's ground and air offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and Peru have all recalled their diplomatic representatives to Israel. 

The Chilean foreign ministry in Santiago said its ambassador was

being brought back to the country because of "the escalation of Israeli

military operations in Gaza".

"Chile notes with great concern and dismay that such military

operations, which at this stage of development are subject to a

collective punishment against the Palestinian civilian population in

Gaza, do not respect fundamental rules of international humanitarian

law."

[woolybanana]

Listening to the news tonight, it is clear that Israel has decided that there will be a no go no live area in Gaza along the limit of the 'frontier' with Israel. Every building seems to have been destroyed to such an extent that noone could ever live there.

On the other hand, the news is showing tunnels which begin in mosques and which were used by Hamas fighters to infiltrate Israel and kill soldiers.

A PLAGUE ON ALL THEIR HOUSES

[richard51]

The French resistance used tunnels to fight the German occupation but apparently that should be applauded???

[richard51]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt5KqKkIgAE58cM.jpg[/img]

[Quillan]

The reason I asked about the UN people was because yesterday (at 10:55) I posted with a link to the Guardian and comments made by Mr Christopher Gunness who said that rockets and arms had been found in several of the UNRWA schools and that they had discovered more arms in different schools in the preceding two weeks. On the news tonight (BBC1) the Commissioner General of UNRWA Mr Pierre Krähenbühl backed up these comments as does the UNRWA website.

Now the technology of these rockets is just slightly better than the home made mortars used by the IRA (probably the same teacher taught the Palestine terrorists that taught the IRA ones). They are not particularly 'stable' and are known to explode on their own and are extremely unreliable.

So if you are a parent and you know these are located in your local school would you let your kids go there, probably not, I defiantly wouldn't. Now UNRWA said that the terrorist organisations who placed them there did so in "violation of the neutrality of our premises" to quote Mr Gunness and tonight Mr Krähenbühl.

My second question would therefore by why did the UNRWA keep the schools open when they knew they were sitting on a potential time bomb. We also know from the last time this happened that if Israel thinks weapons are hidden somewhere they will blow it up whatever it is i.e. a house, flats, school even a hospital. Even worse to then let refugees enter the school grounds is putting even more people at greater risk surely.

Apparently UNRWA in all these cases asked the Palestine government to remove these weapons but they give no indication as to this being carried out from what I can see. Personally I would have been tempted to throw the things out onto the street and give the Israelis a call to tell them where to find them and to leave my schools alone.

According to the UNRWA website (http://www.unrwa.org/) at least of two of these schools were bombed or as they say "struck by explosive ordnance" which seems to be saying they don't actually have a clue who fired it, they assume it might be Israel.

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools

Then on the same day

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-shelling-school-gaza-sheltering-civilians-and-calls

This to me smells of gross incompetence on some bodies behalf.

I am sure that somebody will point at tonights news and the Red Cross who were allowed to enter an area under the control of the Isaeli army to retrieve several bodies and a 80+ year old husband and wife, very sad.

Likewise I am sure somebody will point out the calling up of extra Isareli army personel, not helpful.

I agree with Wooly "A PLAGUE ON ALL THEIR HOUSES".

We should also remember that there is more than one terrorist group at work here and whilst old this might give an idea about who is doing what.

A 2007 study of Palestinian suicide bombings during the Second Intifada (September 2000 through August 2005) found that 39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by Hamas, 26.4 percent by Fatah, 25.7 percent by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), 5.4 percent by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and 2.7 percent by other organizations"

Source - Human Capital and the Productivity of Suicide Bombers pdf Journal of Economic Perspectives Volume 21, Number 3, Summer 2007. Pages 223–238.

Hamas comments about Jews.

"The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) carries a new video of an official television broadcast in which a Hamas cleric states:

Our belief about fighting you [Jews] is that we will exterminate you, until the last one, and we will not leave of you, even one. For you are the usurpers of the land, foreigners, mercenaries of the present and of all times. Look at history, brothers: Wherever there were Jews, they spread corruption... (Quran): "They spread corruption in the land, and Allah does not like corrupters." Their belief is destructive. Their belief fulfills the prophecy. Our belief is in obtaining our rights on our land, implementing Shari'ah (Islamic law) under Allah's sky.

[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 25, 2014]"

Fatah who are now reconciled with Hamas have the same charter,

Palestinian Islamic Jihad - The total destruction of Isael and the creation of an Islamic State in it place.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - Wants a Marxist/Leninism Palistinian state.

So what with some of the idiots in Israel what chance does the ordinary civilian have on either side unless somebody like the UN steps in in a big way like feet (or boots) on the ground.

 

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="richard51"]The French resistance used tunnels to fight the German occupation but apparently that should be applauded???
[/quote]

And the IRA had them to hide guns used to kill the Prods.

[richard51]

It happened on two occasions and on both occasions UNWRA located and removed the rockets and issued a public warning to Hamas.  The two schools were unoccupied.

The UN had given the precise co-ordinates of the schools being used as UN shelters on seventeen that's 17 separate occasions - which makes any sane person think that Israel is deliberately targeting the shelters. You also seem to forget that the attacks were witnessed by international journalists.  Even the US has condemned the attacks now.  This targeting of civilians would be consistent with what I witnessed while living in the West Bank i.e.the IDF using children for target practice.  Israel have also prevented the access of ambulances and have shot at ambulances and medical staff trying to get to the wounded resulting in many many more deaths.  Friends in Gaza acting as human shields to three of the hospitals that have been deliberately targeted by Israel: al-Wafa, al-Aqsa and al-Shifa have all been targeted when trying to evacuate patients.  Israel deliberately targeted the hospitals bombing the ICU and the suite of surgeries killing both patients and medics.  These are war crimes.

You seem desperate to justify the murder of thousands of civilians, including many children Quillan?