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And people condemn benefit fraud!


NormanH
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[quote user="powerdesal"]'' the wealthy (millionaires and above) should be encouraged to ignore the tax avoidance schemes etc and pay what's due. ''

What is due is dictated by the tax laws, the law is the law, it has no moral value.

To encourage people ( wealthy or otherwise ) to pay more than the tax laws say they should is, in effect, to encourage them to break the law. :-)[/quote]

So the wealthy are compelled to put their money in tax avoidance schemes otherwise they're breaking the law, what a load of c**p. You'll be telling me next Bono and his band mates had no choice but to register U2 Inc in Holland (who have lower tax rates), they were just complying with Irish tax law.
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There are one or two things that bother me about the present situation. Perhaps I should preface my remarks that I pay income tax in the UK like a good girl should.

I think there is something badly wrong if someone has a full time job and find that the pay is not enough to keep their family on. Whatever happened to the labourer being worthy of his/her hire ? I resent my taxes going to prop up this system.

The current attitude to the poor makes me sad. As some of you know I "do" local history. I am currently looking at a major and devastating flood which hit a midlands town in 1842. Times were bad before the flood there were already soup kitchens in place. In a meeting called to decide what the town should do, many of those who spoke wanted to leave the poor in a better state than they had been in before the flood. Somehow I don't detect the milk of human kindness reaching that level of compassion these days.

Hoddy

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DraytonBoy,

You seem to me to have a very strange interpretation of my posting.

Nowhere did I say that the wealthy are ''compelled'' to put their money in tax avoidance schemes etc. They are however entitled to.

It is a fact that tax avoidance is perfectly legal. It is the arrangement of your financial matters to minimise your tax liability such that you pay what the law demands you pay. I know nothing about Bono and his band but..... if they utilise the laws of Ireland to minimise their tax liability whilst staying within the law then what did they do that was wrong?

If the tax laws are wrong then change the law but, until then, don't complain that people, wealthy or otherwise, are obeying the law.

Paying tax is a duty that all of us have, none of us are required morally or legally to give the Govt more than is required by such tax laws as set by that Govt.

Anyone, me, you, Bono or whoever are required to pay ''what's due'' and those ''dues'' are not set by us. If you ( or I ) wish to pay more than is required then we can, I suppose, make a donation to HMRC or whichever Tax authority you come under. I don't know if the facility exists for such donations or how the tax authorities would account for them but you appear to think that ''the wealthy (millionaires and above) should do it.
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The law has been changed recently. Rather than targeting individual loopholes a General Anti Avoidance Rule(GARR) is being introduced.

taxavoidance

The full report is quite an interesting read. Written in a straightforward way.

There's a bit about serial avoiders!

What is unethical avoidance is the question.

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[quote user="Tom"]The law has been changed recently. Rather than targeting individual loopholes a General Anti Avoidance Rule(GARR) is being introduced.

taxavoidance

The full report is quite an interesting read. Written in a straightforward way.

There's a bit about serial avoiders!

What is unethical avoidance is the question.

[/quote]

Government, at present and since Thatcher, are passing into statute rafts of laws.

Almost to the point where they may well pass a new law which states: " As from next Monday, crime will be illegal!".

If Government try to impose this, then without significant amendment, it is wide open to challenge, on various fronts.

For example, most commentators fail to point out tax and revenue laws are a mixture of Civil jurisdiction; and Criminal jurisdiction,

In the law of England and Wales (Scotland marginally different), "A person or company is innocent until proven guilty beyond doubt".

Already, HMRC are all too often acting like a Star Chamber!

The established rules of jurisprudence, allow one to defend oneself: and if necessary, through the Court of Appeal and even up to and including the Supreme Court.

The only way tax dissents can be handled, at present, is by challenge and counter-challenge. Indeed, as with all UK and US law, precedent law reigns supreme. Therefore, if Government were to be serious, then they must change extant tax law!

Remember, UK tax law and HMRC enjoy zero powers over persons and corporations based in another fiscal and legal jurisdiction: and there are presently, in excess of 1,000 international Double Taxation Treaties, and Britain has signed over 100.

Right now this whole charade is political (running up to a general election): since Government is essentially hugely profligate and continues (despite assurance of austerity!) to waste billions and billions on party political ideologies; such as QUANGOs, NGOs, etc.

Beware the  Law of Unintended Consequences! For every action, be it ours or Governments, then is an equal and opposite reaction.

Say, for example, Government elect to charge 100% VAT on all Apple products. (Since Apple is offshore based and pays little or no corporate taxes).

Then the opposite and equal reaction would be massive smuggling into Britain of Apple products. As has happened with booze and tobacco products.

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Concerning the HSBC Swiss bank files that were leaked, these contained the names of UK citizens with secret accounts.

There is no law against setting up  a Swiss account, but as far as I know it is tax evasion if you don't inform  HMRC about it, as a certain amount of UK tax would be due.

HMRC  has had the list of names for about 5 years. No one has been prosecuted.

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[quote user="Tom"]Concerning the HSBC Swiss bank files that were leaked, these contained the names of UK citizens with secret accounts.

There is no law against setting up  a Swiss account, but as far as I know it is tax evasion if you don't inform  HMRC about it, as a certain amount of UK tax would be due.

HMRC  has had the list of names for about 5 years. No one has been prosecuted.

[/quote]

Let's be clear about this: Evasion is earning profits, capital gains etc and not declaring such.

However, if those profits, gains etc remain in another nation state and fiscal jurisdiction; and, the correct structure is in place to house the proceeds, then it is not evasion. It would be evasion if you brought those proceeds into the UK (or indeed most other fiscal jurisdiction), without properly declaring same.

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I guess why there has been such a fuss about HSBC Switzerland is that a lot of the acounts were set up with cash derived from UK earnings of one kind or another.

Reading in the FT that there has actually been one prosecution and £135m clawed back.

FT article

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[quote user="Tom"]I guess why there has been such a fuss about HSBC Switzerland is that a lot of the acounts were set up with cash derived from UK earnings of one kind or another.

Reading in the FT that there has actually been one prosecution and £135m clawed back.

FT article

[/quote]

If profits or gains were earned in the UK and no tax was paid and furthermore, the taxpayer had not declared these on their tax return, then yes indeed; it is clear tax evasion. Furthermore it is Money Laundering and an offence has been committed under the Proceeds of Crime Act.

However and that said, since any business or person based, fiscally or living as a resident in Switzerland is not under the UK legal (and HMRC) jurisdiction, it is not a Swiss offence (or indeed a Cayman, Bermuda, Bahamas, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg etc) offence, since the money has not derived from economic activity in that jurisdiction, per se.

Think about this for a minute...................London is awash with foreigners living there part of the time. And a huge number have defrauded their own country's system: yet, are welcomed with open arms by Dave and Co. and banks; and top end estate agents. Consider all the Russian oligarchs: Vladimir Putin has caught a number and imprisoned them for tax evasion and theft of national state property. However, are they excoriated in Britain?

Not at all; they are allowed to buy football clubs, country estates and etc.

The matter is essentially two-faced, Tom.

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In the late 1970s, I was Finance Director of a City trading and projects financing company.

Since we were extremely active in West Africa (and even owned subsidiaries there), one of the matters we assisted foreign clients in, was what was called politely, then Repatriation of Capital. Correctly, this was simply assisting through London and Zurich and Geneva, those with substantial business assets and capital to move same to Europe and the USA.

Amongst those client were numerous Nigerian chiefs and even government officials (!!) who wished to move serious tranches of capital in Naira (The Nigerian currency) to, err, other climes.

Now at this time, those shifting Naira out of Nigeria were committing a crime; the penalty for which was execution!

However, in London UK and Switzerland etc, this was not a crime: and the Bank of England knew all about it and simply nodded......

Once I was approached by an American investment banker working in Europe, to assist in moving circa 30 million Naira to London. In the final event it didn't happen: however, the slightly concealed client, working through his London agent, was then the Nigerian Justice Secretary, who was also the head of the major Nigerian law firm!

Most fascinating and involved story which is shortly to be included in a book.

I long ago stopped being amazed, annoyed, outraged at the perfidy of people when large amounts of capital are involved.

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