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Better out of the EU?


Quillan
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[quote user="Judith"]Or rather ... exterminate. ...exterminate .. exterminate .... surely a much better idea??

[/quote]

My post, with the image of a Dalek, was a light-hearted poke at those who want the forum tailored to suit their own views.

The above, however, seems to indicate a somewhat darker attitude.

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[quote user="Quillan"]  ................. perhaps it's just me then?[/quote]

That's the way it seems to me. I saw nothing wrong with ebaynut's post, and was very surprised at the knee-jerk reaction of others here.

But I'm not really au fait with the latest norms of UK PC, so decided some years back not to visit the UK unnecessarily.

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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="idun"]NickP, remember we do not get 100% from the UK, just like that, we have to hand in an S1 (E121 and prior to that an E106).

And we are giving this careful thought now. With french pension being our only income, and eventually being the biggest part of our income, then IF the UK leaves, then we may well move if our income may be affected, maybe Brittany, or maybe Ireland, not sure, but we have already given it some thought.

[/quote] So you're telling me that you don't get free medical care at the point of delivery?

[/quote]

NickP, no idea what would happen if we refused to hand one in. I know that they want these forms, because it took France a long time, probably over a year to issue the first form, E121 type, and we were getting calls from Newcastle chasing this paper work up very regularly. Must ask what would happen without.

Re health care in France. Hmmmmm, like private in the UK........ well, I have not been into a private clinic in the UK, but I have had horrible hospital care in France, twice, just over a year before I left, absolutely disgraceful it was, so if private is like that in the UK, I'll not bother with it.

My son and friends have to wait an age for some things that used to be rather 'quick' in France in the olde days. And I have found that some things are far quicker here. So far I have personally had nothing 'pressing'. Friends who have developed serious health problems have been seen very very quickly and really well looked after by the NHS.

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I've personally (and through Mr B) had a few brushes recently with private healthcare in the UK.

Mr B had far more serious surgery than me, twice, both times in the London Bridge hospital. He was not only very satisfied with the care he received, but prior to the second visit he was waxing lyrical and looking forward to being able to eat from their menu again. Not, from what I've heard, something that's said often about hospitals in either France or the UK.
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[quote user="idun"]

Re health care in France. Hmmmmm, like private in the UK........ well, I have not been into a private clinic in the UK, but I have had horrible hospital care in France, twice, just over a year before I left, absolutely disgraceful it was, so if private is like that in the UK, I'll not bother with it.

[/quote]

It's like a ruddy hotel, room service at least 18 hours a day and no silly visiting time restrictions. Scans and Xrays returned within hours. It's something else but it costs a lot more money or you have to work for an insurance company or bank to get the sort of subsidies that ordinary people generously donate through policy fees or bank charges etc.  Mrs T was working for an insurance co.

When in the fine St Thomas's hosp, I remind the toffee nosed twat in the next bed the Marriott was next door! "Another jug of iced water nurse" he barked never a please or thank you and you were encouraged to get your own drinks from the little kitchen or fruit juice because that got you out of bed and moving.

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Quillan wrote:

Very few French have ever experienced the NHS and those that have that I have alked to have found it horrible. Both my neighbours daughters have had the babies delivered in the UK (they live and work there) and were horified by the experience. They saw the 'wards' with more than two beds and thought it very unhealthy and were supprised at the lack of privacy.

Here we go again..Visiters to the UK running down the NHS .... I listen to every language under the sun being spoken by patients in the hospitals I visit three days a week If the numbers of non UK patients keep increasing at the rate they are .they wont just be complaining of lack of a single room it WILL l be like somthing out of Mash... in the grounds !

How can a country be expected to build and staff hospitals to treat these patients in the numbers that arrive in the UK from a cross chennel country seeking work ...and dont bother to register with a doctor !

Just look at the figures over the past ten years . As far as I am concerned if they are not happy, and shocked about being in a room with others they can use the wealth the UK has provided them by way of the employment they dont get at home, Pay out and go private , and make room for somebody else

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[quote user="ebaynut"]Regarding the European project, it is something I wish to see not only derailed, but smashed to pieces. I have no wish for an unelected elite in Brussels making laws which I have to live by, with no way of removing their power by the ballot box. That does start wars. God forbid that if the French had a hand in making all our laws in the UK, we would all end up as poor as most of their own people, who outside of the Paris suburbs are driving around mostly in mobile scrap heaps from the 1980’s as they cant afford any better. Some may say they are happy with their lot, lets hope so, as they will never be able to change it.[/quote]But what are you going to replace it with? UKIP seem to be suggesting the UK becomes a member of EEA with all the disadvantages referred to in the OP. You seem to be suggesting a complete break which would lead to a tariff wall between the UK and our largest market. That might not be the cleverest thing from the UK point of view.

If there is an In/Out referendum in the next few years I hope that the Out side will explain exactly what they will replace the UK EU membership with so we can make our choice based on rational thought and not on xenophobic hysteria.

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edit

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="ebaynut"]But your views as a

Jewish person of a mixed race marriage, with gay people in your family (

you often state these facts, so clearly you are very proud of them)

would be completely different to a white English straight persons view.

So you will never understand, or would I expect you too. Or would I

waste my time trying to explain it to you.[/quote]

And you don't

think that is insulting to Jewish, coloured and gay people especially

when you added "would be completely different to a white English

straight persons view"? I think that is blatantly anti-Semitic, racists

and homophobic but perhaps I am wrong, perhaps it's just me

then?[/quote]

It's not just you.

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Is everyone else on this forum a UK resident? I only ask because a lot of the anti EU views here seem in the main to be from people living in the UK. I really can see no advantage to British people who live in other EU Countries for the UK to leave the EU. I can only imagine that it will make life more difficult. Personally I have benefited greatly from EU membership in terms of employment and education and freedom of movement.
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As a UK resident I have benefitted hugely from the UK's membership of the EU throughout my working life and most especially over the last 10 years, during which I have depended on migrants from outside the UK coming to England to provide me with a living. So I'm that rare beast..someone who would actually face the prospect of losing my livelihood if Britain left the EU.

Then again, I'm not and never have been anti EU but I don't think the current setup is fit for purpose.
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[quote user="ebaynut"]Judith wrote Or rather ... exterminate. ...exterminate .. exterminate .... surely a much better idea??

Have you been radicalised?? You sound like an IS agent, your not ‘Jihad Judith’ are you by any chance??[/quote]

No I just prefer correct quotation, if quote you must.

Like Nomoss, I too was actually trying to make light of a discussion which was descending into a cross between a farce and a tragedy.

Reading between the lines is not always the most sensible option.

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In 1981, the EU didn't exist, it was a vaguely linked trading area with smudged rules between the countries and as far as I can remember called the EEC. Was that of great benefit to us. I do not recall it being so. We had a right struggle to get our carte de sejours. And I sort of regret that it is no longer like that to be honest.

When it boils down to it, I have no idea why the EEC changed into the EU and how it was allowed to become the colossus it now is, or how so many countries are now included, feels 'mad' to me.

So what has where one lives to do with this. I voted in the election to not join the EEC. I then ended up living in France for most of my adult life and as planned moved back to the UK to retire, although we are fluid and will move on if we need to.

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Well I don't know about you Idun but when I vote I largely vote for things that I think are going to be in my interests to do so, and as someone who has benefited from the free movement policies of the EU and made the most of them, then that's why I think there is a link. Maybe it is more esoteric than that though and more about sense of identity. I emigrated to Canada when I was younger but didn't really settle and moved back. However it wasn't England that I missed but Europe and things European. Fact is I have never really identified much with the land of my birth.

The vote for whether the UK should enter the EU was one of the first elections in which I could vote and I voted in favour. If there is a referendum in my lifetime I would still vote in favour, and for the next 10 years I can vote in the UK.

Personally I don't think the Uk will leave the EU, but if it did, probably in reality the worse thing that would happen would be that people would have to find something else to blame for their misery, because it certainly wouldn't put any more money into the pockets of individuals or protect vulnerable services such as the NHS.
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If Britain does hold a referendum, like it or not, the vast majority of those voting will be UK residents, and the vast majority of those will have, at least in terms of their own perception, derived no tangible personal benefit fro EU membership. Fuelled by the popular press and the UKIP political bandwagon, there's a belief that all GB plc's current woes will disappear. Much like the Scottish referendum, there has only been speculation or vague promises about what might happen next.

There's a certain irony that a percentage, however tiny, of people who moved abroad to other EU countries did so to escape "#?!* immigrants, and a further irony that they are now in some cases torn between voting for an EU that will keep them relatively safe and comfortable where they are or voting for the UK to leave, to satisfy their beliefs about immigration or the erosion of British values.

If it did come to a UK exit from the UK, would those same people feel it was OK to start lobbying for some sort of special treatment? I bet they would. As you point out, lindal, there's a natural reaction to vote for something that's in one's personal interests. But I guess it also depends on just how entrenched or indoctrinated one has become in one's political views. There will be people who are quite comfortable cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
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Well Betty I do remember quite clearly two couples who I know live in France talking just before the last election saying that they had just sent their postal votes in and they both had voted for their respective Ukip candidate which I thought a bit odd. It has to be said that there are a lot of assumptions going around and to be honest (and I include myself) nobody knows for sure exactly what would happen but we can make some educated guesses on what might happen.

The reason I originally posted was because those that want to leave often use Norway as a typical example of how you can not be an EU member yet still trade with the EU via the EEA not realising it comes at a cost, a big cost. Now many have said when I have mentioned it before that this is rubbish but this guy proves that I was right and in his position he should know. However in the interest of keeping it balanced it is interesting to note that while many Norwegians feel aggrieved at not having any voting power within the EU they still, after several referendums, chose, by a small majority, not to become a full member. I wish their was more information (rather than hearsay) on why they chose not to be a full member.

I make no effort to hide the fact that I am pro European and pro EU BUT that does not mean I think it is perfect and that there are no problems. There has to be more democracy with the way the EU is run for example with people being elected into high office and there needs to be a fairer way in which the cost to member states is collected. You can't control the money going out if you don't centrally control the amount coming in. In my personal view once it becomes more democratic central federal taxation is the way forward although it is highly unlikely I will see this in my lifetime although I might see it become more democratic.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

 It has to be said that there are a lot of assumptions going around and to be honest (and I include myself) nobody knows for sure exactly what would happen but we can make some educated guesses on what might happen.

[/quote]

Can we? there have been many many elections but despite all that rhetoric and manifesto's the same issues roll on and on. no one party has a real solution it just varies the course in one way and then back along another hopefully moving towards a goal but there will always be winners and losers.  Labour borrow to help everyone but go too far. Conservatives back themselves, and tell everyone they must except change as the way forward but the part of society least wanting accepting of change is actually the conservatives.

The other flavors people are just too scarred to elect.

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Norway chose not to join the EU for one simple reason: OIL. It wanted to keep the oil revenuse for itself and its people rather than have it squandered by excessive EU charges and European mad spending. And good luck to them on that score as they now have a vast national investment fund to be used for the future of their people.

Not sure about fish either.
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Lindal1000 wrote:

The vote for whether the UK should enter the EU was one of the first elections in which I could vote and I voted in favour. If there is a referendum in my lifetime I would still vote in favour, and for the next 10 years I can vote in the UK.

Was this the referendum of 1975?

It was not a referendum for the UK to join the EU but, ostensibly, a referendum to determine whether the UK should remain in the EEC. Edward Heath had taken the UK into the EEC with the approval of Parliament (a perfectly legitimate process).

The referendum had absolutely nothing to do with membership of the EEC, it was simply a very expensive method used by Harold Wilson to keep Tony Benn under control. Benn was an early version of Farage. The vote in support of continuing membership was about 66%. It was viewed as humiliation for Benn.

 

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[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]

 It has to be said that there are a lot of assumptions going around and to be honest (and I include myself) nobody knows for sure exactly what would happen but we can make some educated guesses on what might happen.

[/quote]
Can we? there have been many many elections but despite all that rhetoric and manifesto's the same issues roll on and on. no one party has a real solution it just varies the course in one way and then back along another hopefully moving towards a goal but there will always be winners and losers.  Labour borrow to help everyone but go too far. Conservatives back themselves, and tell everyone they must except change as the way forward but the part of society least wanting accepting of change is actually the conservatives.

The other flavors people are just too scarred to elect.
[/quote]

Yes your right although initially they do get a lot of votes in general but rarely enough in any one constituency to get anyone elected other than a handful, remember the SDP? At the end of the day many have good intentions to vote differently but when they get to voting booth, pause, then think "sod it, better the devil you know". In the UK by-elections are rare and some do use them to send a message, bit like the French with the first round of presidential elections. What happens in a general election can be quite different. I don’t think the UK has a monopoly on ‘stale politics’ either.

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I don't remember that bit Clark Kent.. although now I come to think about I do remember the labour party being very anti Europe. Funny how times change! I do remember my family discussing it and there being a difference of opinion between my mother and father. My father was an old style socialist and had no time for Europe, having a mistrust of anything foreign. My mother on the other hand still remembered her traumatic experiences of living in a Europe at war and saw her vote as a wayof ensuring a peaceful future. I guess we have been a lucky generation really in that all we have had to worry out is whether people in the various parliaments are spending our money wisely, rather than whether we are going to have to take up arms against our neighbours.
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