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EU Move to force a change away from halogen lights


Frederick
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I have a lot of these in my house in France ..Many set into room ceilings . The LED ones are VERY expensive so once again the interfering B*****ds of Brussels are out to reach into my pocket... I have worked out the replacemnent cost of mine would be over £ 300 at todays prices if done all at once .

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/eu-could-ban-halogen-bulbs-5258413
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GU10 lamps were not much good from day one.  However they are not banning the good ones yet, just the rubbish ones.  The lumen out put of some of these like cheap Tesco's ones is about 50% of the better ones so those must go.

If you are silly enough to look for LED's in french shops, yes expensive  and poor quality, even Ikea will beat them.

Now you say you have loads, well the saving to your pocket will also be large over time not to mention the life span of a GU10 isn't good.

Everyone must reduce the carbon footprint and so reduce power consumption the world and the oceans cannot take the strain so we could see the ocean becoming more acidic which will kill the fish, at the current rate of ocean acidification fish will die and so will the Eco system that supports our planet.

http://www.goesfoundation.com/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081124-acidic-oceans.html

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This has been in most of the tabloid press yesterday with some absolutely outlandish claims made in the articles. One newspaper (DM) made the outstanding claim that LED lamps cost £30 each, not the fitting but the lamp. How the supermarkets can charge the price they do for these lamps is beyond me. It is not the manufacturer that's ripping people off but the supermarkets.

Well I changed over to LED lamps a couple of years ago and have gradually been changing as much of the house over to them as possible. When I first started I was paying 2.90€ each but the price has dropped since them. At the recommendation of another forum member I looked around the web where you can buy them in packs of 10 which reduces the price by quite a bit.

By replacing your existing halogen and incandescent lamps with LED's you can save anywhere between £200 and £300 per year in electricity bills according to many sources. In my study I still have the halogen lamps because it is a way of using them as I have a box full. Whilst I have replaced several over the last couple of years I have yet to replace an LED lamp.

The fluorescent lamps have been around for years anyway and they are more expensive to buy and you need a special dimmer for them but they don't do a spot type bulb like we use in our kitchen anyway. My biggest issue with them is the 'candle' sized bulbs which with the electronics in the bottom are far from candle shaped size but then you can also get LED candle bulbs now for the same price.

So firstly I can't understand why you wouldn't be fitting these anyway because they can save you money and last longer. Secondly, just in case people have missed it, the EU is going to be acting as one unit on energy prices. The idea behind this is the 'bulk buy' principle. We can get cheaper gas and oil if we negotiate a price as one group. So effectively the price you pay for gas and electricity will be controlled by Brussels but it should be cheaper. The common energy policy will hopefully stop the supply companies from ripping people off.

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Typical tabloid wording, isn't it? The EU "could" ban halogens by 2016. On the other hand, as the article goes on to say, they might not. They might wait....quite a long time.

And whatever they decide, there's no imperative to replace every lightbulb in your home from the day of the ruling. Why, if you're so inclined, you could certainly stockpile halogens and keep going with them till your stocks run out. After all, they aren't going to come round and check every house in the EU for halogens, are they?

Having just moved house, we've been replacing every lightbulb in our new house with low energy bulbs as they were all still incandescent ones. So stockpiling is feasible...

I've even splashed out on some LED bulbs which cost a bit...but with a bit of judicious online shopping, I got the type I wanted (normally £25 each in the Heals And John Lewises of this world) for £11. A lot of money, but as they're designed to be decorative I've saved on lampshades ?
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I too have changed as many from either tungsten or halogen to led. It's a no brainer if, as has been said, you shop around. And you can't do this with an incandescing lamp

[URL=http://s47.photobucket.com/user/Jonzjob/media/Johns/Kitchencupboardlighting_zps7ab78800.jpg.html][IMG]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f180/Jonzjob/Johns/Kitchencupboardlighting_zps7ab78800.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

That used to be a very dark cupboard and now it ain't [8-|]

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That immediately had me google JL led to what they were selling but mostly completely new fittings for what I could see?

The UK was talking about removing only the bad GU10/MR16's from sale for at least the last 2-3y but as the Led's use so much less power and now produce good quality light I just wonder if the fuss is old people fearing change [6]

So true John, the sky is the limit in great new lighting designs where previously people had a single point source of light, too bright in the middle of the room and to dim around the periphery so a bigger lamp still was used to get the edges brighter so 100w lamps took over.

Even downlighters produce poor light compared to panel of light that integrate into the ceiling.

Take swimming pool lights, the old ones 300w and they didn't last that long, now 30-40w or even a bit less

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The problem surely is not just the change to a more expensive - but IMHO much better and long term more economical bulb - but that generally you will have to change the light fittings as well. There is not (AFAIK) an LED version of a GU10 or 9 that allows a simple bulb replacement.

Factor in the change of fitting, and quite possibly a need to redecorate, and LEDs do not present a benefit when the change is forced on the population.
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[quote user="andyh4"]The problem surely is not just the change to a more expensive - but IMHO much better and long term more economical bulb - but that generally you will have to change the light fittings as well. There is not (AFAIK) an LED version of a GU10 or 9 that allows a simple bulb replacement.

Factor in the change of fitting, and quite possibly a need to redecorate, and LEDs do not present a benefit when the change is forced on the population.[/quote]

Andy, there are direct replacements, contrary to what some sellers say for MR16, G9 GU10 etc etc, it's in the producers interest to do this.  Some GU10/MR16 are 1mm or more longer than the originals. this still isn't a problem in most cases.  The lamp power connector is used to be fastened to the same clip as the springs which hold the fitting in the ceiling.  Removing the power connector from that so it can sit slightly farther back is usually all that is needed by way of conversion.  The lamps are held in by the spring clip affair on the front of the lamp so no issues that basic DIY couldn't handle but there are less and less of those around as it makes it cheaper to produce and easier to change lamp.

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[quote user="andyh4"]The problem surely is not just the change to a more expensive - but IMHO much better and long term more economical bulb - but that generally you will have to change the light fittings as well. There is not (AFAIK) an LED version of a GU10 or 9 that allows a simple bulb replacement. Factor in the change of fitting, and quite possibly a need to redecorate, and LEDs do not present a benefit when the change is forced on the population.[/quote]

Strange because when I googled them there are hundreds of companies selling bot types including Amazon in both 240V and 12V versions.. You don't even need to change the fitting as they are a direct replacement. There are dimmable versions of both and some companies do not charge any extra for them. My white kitchen downlighters were on 4.99€ for a pack of three from Leroy Merlin and when I changed to LED bulbs it was a straight replacement. I think if you look around you will be supprised.

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I dont like LED bulbs I dont want them I wont have them and I like less some people insisting I have to have them so it wont happen . But then what if in a couple of years time these same people say "sorry we made a mistake ....we have now been told they are not healthy for you get them out " ?

More research needed on this form of lighting I think

there are people who are saying they are not healthy to live with ...as the article below

It’s December and the days are short, leaving us to bask in the harsh lights of our homes and offices. While it’s well known that natural light is preferable to artificial for a variety of reasons (vitamin-D production, prevention of seasonal affective disorder), new research published in the Journal of Environmental Management shows that nighttime exposure to certain types of artificial light has an even darker side than previously understood. In particular, it suppresses the body’s ability to make melatonin, the hormone that helps regulate sleep and is celebrated for its antioxidant, mood-enhancing and cancer-fighting properties.

The main culprit is artificial light that contains the highest percentage of blue light in its full-spectrum mix. One of the top offenders in this category is the light-emitting diode (LED) bulb, which suppresses melatonin at rates five times greater than bulbs that give off warmer “orange-yellow” light, like incandescents.

LEDs have grown increasingly popular as an environmentally friendly alternative to fluorescent or incandescent bulbs. They contain no mercury, last more than 50,000 hours and use up to 80 percent less energy than traditional incandescent bulbs.

Despite these benefits, scientists encourage consumers to choose bulbs situationally, avoiding LEDs at night. Melatonin-suppressing light is “dangerous only if we expose ourselves to it during the hours when we should be in the dark, and if the exposure is sufficiently intense or long,” says physicist Fabio Falchi, of the Light Pollution Science and Technology Institute in Italy. He advises people to rely more on incandescent light after dark, especially in the bedroom.

like reading subscription ad

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[quote user="Frederick"]I dont like LED bulbs I dont want them I wont have them and I like less some people insisting I have to have them so it wont happen . But then what if in a couple of years time these same people say "sorry we made a mistake ....we have now been told they are not healthy for you get them out " ?

More research needed on this form of lighting I think

there are people who are saying they are not healthy to live with[/quote]

Why don't you like them, because they are new..,.ish,  what you prefer very yellow light and bigger electricity bills?  What, why?  This is why governments have to pass rules because despite all the positives there are people who just have to stick with what they have always done.  Even more power stations or even power cuts are far less likable than fitting an LED lamp

Led tech has been around a long time but has got far better and you can have yellow light that you are used to. work areas not used constantly can have daylight white and soon the LED's will be available to use under work tops in UV to kill bacteria on surfaces.

Your tabloid headline is just that tomorrows chip paper so if you pension is big enough to support the extra cost when electricity prices are going to rise by 50% in 10 years keep doing what you want and don't give a stuff about the environment you'll leave for others, Oceans devoid of fish.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Recent work by Osram and a small UK company called Nanoco whould soon produce LEDs which are much gentler and even cheaper to run; watch this space for news.[/quote]

What that exact space?  why plasma lamps are already being made in labs.

Bananas last to know anything [:P]

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Thank goodness for this thread and all who contribute to it!

I say this because I am in the midst of sourcing a cooker hood and lights for my new kitchen and le dressing.

Now if someone can tell me where to get these LED thingies (excuse me, I am not into the finer details), preferably on-line, that would be much appreciated.

Also, can I really get the candle type lights I have on the murano crystal chandeliers which I have throughout the house?[:P][:D]  No, I promise I am not bragging, they were all bought for a pittance on leboncoin![:D]

I am thinking of having a suitably elaborate branched affair in le dressing which is undergoing a revision and some wall lights (appliques assorties!!) on either side of a full-length mirror.

Nevermind that le dressing is only the size of a largish cupboard, some of us have VERY grand designs.................laughing and waiting for some suitably waspish remarks that would dent the ego a bit because I swear it is running away with me.........

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Unfortunately, lighting is a most demanding scientific and technical subject; worth perhaps considering various serious (peer reviewed) research projects.

Human metabolism and physiology are again demanding medical and biological studies.

Chinese electronics components manufacturers are banging out rafts of stuff, which lacks proper quality control. Type and spectrum of light emitted varies according to base material (e.g. Gallium Arsenide etc), control circuitry and lenses.

I agree about Melatonin levels; take into account too Serotonin, which is a complex chemical and has a complex relationship with digestion as well as neural function. It is now absolutely proven,  light deprivation caused organic and neural illnesses.

See here:

See here:

Unfortunately, the green lobby in the EU rushed to energy efficient lamps (not LED e.g.), without thinking of environmental disposal......... as one example lacking joined up thinking!

To try and insist "it must be good 'cos it saves energy", is a classic example of illogical syllogism, in mounting an argument and proposing a valid conclusion.

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[quote user="Benjamin"]This forum discussion from Money Saving Expert may (or not!) help.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3748357

Certainly gives this particular person a lot more knowledge than when I started.

[/quote]

Well if you know more that is a miracle in it's self when guided by people who

know not of what they speak in most cases.

"I bought on Ebay"  Well that's roughly half of Shenzhen province and to say nothing of Singapore, Taiwan the USA etc etc [blink]

Mint, you need sparkly white LED for your chandeliers.  Tested a good numbers of these, My favorite were this type. My friends closed their company last year so my supply of top quality ones has stopped but even the cheaper ones (just buy some more as spares) are probably ok. I have to get some for myself soon but can't remember which base they have, small edison screw or large, or were they small bayonet or large.

 

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I was sat here rather smugly thinking I had none.

Then I remembered I have one standard lamp with a halogen fitting, so that would be one. AND then I remembered that the shower room has them, in when we bought the house, so it will be a good excuse to try and find proper alternatives.

Thing is that I loathe those little lights in the ceiling, down lights????? is that what they are called?

Daresay M. Idun isn't going to be very happy about having to change these lamps, or put in new fittings[:-))]

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[quote user="Gluestick"]Unfortunately, lighting is a most demanding scientific and technical subject; worth perhaps considering various serious (peer reviewed) research projects.

Human metabolism and physiology are again demanding medical and biological studies.

Chinese electronics components manufacturers are banging out rafts of stuff, which lacks proper quality control. Type and spectrum of light emitted varies according to base material (e.g. Gallium Arsenide etc), control circuitry and lenses.

I agree about Melatonin levels; take into account too Serotonin, which is a complex chemical and has a complex relationship with digestion as well as neural function. It is now absolutely proven,  light deprivation caused organic and neural illnesses.

See here:

See here:

Interesting they seem to be after the blue end of the spectrum as well as the yellow end which contradicts what Frederick posted, maybe he could supply his source material?

The other lamps seem to line up with the power levels of the halogen replacements for std incandescence which IMO give the best of all light but not the best reduction in energy.

Unfortunately, the green lobby in the EU rushed to energy efficient lamps (not LED e.g.), without thinking of environmental disposal......... as one example lacking joined up thinking!

That's why voting for the Green's is a no no, whilst your conscience  may rest better they are far to believing in anything but real facts, too much superstitious clap trap which is a shame.

To try and insist "it must be good 'cos it saves energy", is a classic example of illogical syllogism, in mounting an argument and proposing a valid conclusion.

Yes that has some truth, but we are faced with a very big problem and exploring possibilities to reduce the burden on the world need to be explored. Along that journey we are bound to have setbacks but proving the progress is in the right direction it's better.

[/quote]
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[quote user="idun"]I was sat here rather smugly thinking I had none.

Then I remembered I have one standard lamp with a halogen fitting, so that would be one. AND then I remembered that the shower room has them, in when we bought the house, so it will be a good excuse to try and find proper alternatives.

Thing is that I loathe those little lights in the ceiling, down lights????? is that what they are called?

Daresay M. Idun isn't going to be very happy about having to change these lamps, or put in new fittings[:-))]

[/quote]

You are not alone, I have plenty, all filled with LED's but the fittings are so limiting as they really are spots, ok for highlighting but in France I have LED panel lights, these are not for looking at, they simply illuminate the lounge evenly and very cheaply (60watts total)

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I bought LED downlighters from EBay (Chinese seller) for the new apartments and for my own, the last 2 days I have spent re-doing the lighting in my apartment which was previosly plafonnières in all rooms with CFL lamps, and additional wall lights in the lounge, the light level was fine for intimate moments, diner au chandelles but rubbish for anything else especially with my presbyte vision, the CFL's gave out practically no light for the first 10 minutes and the location of my apartment means that even on sunny days, which are rare here, its in semi darkness.

I have now fitted 6 off 7 watt LED downlighters in a 9.5m2 cuisine, 9 off in a 15m2 salon and 6 off in a 9m2 chambre, bright white in the kitchen and bathroom (to be done this afternoon) and warm white elsewhere.

I can tell you that I am absolutely gobsmacked at the result, its like I have moved to the Meditteranean, today is a sunny day but I have the kitchen lights on for my comfort, I spent all last night doing a 2nd round of spring cleaning now that I could see properly for the first time.

And they were very cheap, £3.30 something for the complete fitting and they are the swivel type as well, very smart looking in polished aluminium.

I am now a convert and will be redoing both my properties in the UK,  I had redecorated last year and I kid you not the addition of the lighting would add a subliminal €20K to the value of my apartment.

I can see why some people dont like the look of downlighters, it dépends on your decoration, I had changed to something more modern and the old plafonniers didnt look right and detracted from the decoration, the rows of spots look really tendance, they are slightly larger than the GU10 type which gives the advantage that I can get my hand and forearm through the hole for fishing cables. 

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[quote user="Théière"].

Well if you know more that is a miracle in it's self when guided by people who

know not of what they speak in most cases.

"I bought on Ebay"  Well that's roughly half of Shenzhen province and to say nothing of Singapore, Taiwan the USA etc etc [blink]

 

[/quote]

Which is the whole point of the post. If you don't know, don't guess but talk to the experts. In my case that will be CEF.[:D]

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[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Théière"].

Well if you know more that is a miracle in it's self when guided by people who

know not of what they speak in most cases.

"I bought on Ebay"  Well that's roughly half of Shenzhen province and to say nothing of Singapore, Taiwan the USA etc etc [blink]

[/quote]

Which is the whole point of the post. If you don't know, don't guess but talk to the experts. In my case that will be CEF.[:D]

[/quote]

City Electrical Factors = experts well that's a debatable point on it's own, I prefer the word retailer. They are hardly going to suggest anything they don't sell which may well be better.  I used to sell these commercially with friends and also fitted out blocks of flats with various types of LED and we searched for the best products available not the best profit margins.

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I do my own research but even then you can get caught, the Chinese bless them don't like to disappoint so will package up lamps and send them whatever. The sample they sent was great and maybe isn't even their product [6] but when the rest of the order arrives it can be a fair bit different colour rendering  wise.  The very cheap end may use the same chipset as others but the low voltage drivers can be very basic and that's usually what fails first and can sometimes take the LED chip with it.

The large difference in price from Phillips and the like doesn't justify the purchase either, on the Philips stand at one of the light trade shows the salesman was telling some people = to a 50w halogen, yeah right I said shall I bring one of your 50w halogens tomorrow and a battery and we can compare!  I seriously believe they calculate the price on you saving 10% of the cost of the electricity standard lamps would have used.

I don't import bulk any more as the market is not profit making with people like Chancer buying off Ebay so long as you buy spares as there will be failures at those prices you'll probably come out smiling.  For my commercial customers the cost of me going back to swap out a lamp would not be viable so I buy branded versions more often for those setups and TLC do at least have their lamps tested.

The LED swimming pool lights are manufactured by a friends company so I know all about those.

Kosnic make a reliable product in most cases but at 4 times the price of Chancers and the failure rate not usually more than 10-15% your still in profit. Just avoid 240 mains open faced versions as these are known to be potential fire and electric shock hazards.

Cree chips tend to be the brightest but COB led's because of the phosphorus give out great light for the wattage.

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