The hottest topic in Europe yet....

[NickP]

I would respectfully suggest that you haven't reported everything you heard on the news Patf, The news report I saw said, " that the Danish government are in discussions about bringing in a rule that  will take away assets from refugees (or asylum seekers for the pedantic members of this forum) above a certain level, to bring them into line with conditions imposed on Danish Nationals who claim benefits". What is wrong with that? Nothing to do with holocausts or what happened to Jews in concentration camps at all.

[Cendrillon]

They have just announced on the news that this new rule has been approved.

[Benjamin]

So, all of you ladies would have been quite happy to have been in Cologne and other European cities at New Year.

We see children and families on TV news but most of the immigrants are single young men.

What do you expect to happen when many come from a different cultural background and have yet to learn our "rules" regarding respect to others?

[mint]

[quote user="NickP"]I would respectfully suggest that you haven't reported everything you heard on the news Patf, The news report I saw said, " that the Danish government are in discussions about bringing in a rule that  will take away assets from refugees (or asylum seekers for the pedantic members of this forum) above a certain level, to bring them into line with conditions imposed on Danish Nationals who claim benefits". What is wrong with that? Nothing to do with holocausts or what happened to Jews in concentration camps at all.

[/quote]

Quite right, Nick.  I was going to explain the same thing to Patf but couldn't access the forum.

What the Danes are proposing is to make migrants subject to the same rules as their own citizens who also have to use up their own assets before being given benefits.  Don't we have the same in the UK where you have to be down to your last whatever amount of savings before being eligible for, for example, residential home fees?

The media, in their hysterical and headline-grabbing ways use words like "confiscate" and "stripping of assets" to ramp up the indignation.  Some of the media are themselves worse than scum.  Remember the reporter who stuck out her leg to trip up a migrant in order to secure a more heart-wrenching photo?  Absolutely disgraceful!

Plus, I don't think that people should mention the treatment of migrants and that of the Jews in the last century in the same breath.  THAT atrocity was without precedent and I hope continue to be unbroken in the future too.  To compare the two is to degrade the very horrendous sufferings that the Jews endured and which have left an indelible mark on all of us for generations.

AFAIK, the Danes have not built any concentration camps or gas chambers and are not proposing to conduct medical experiments on the migrants!

[Patf]

Nick - I missed that bit, it was on the very ealy morning Breakfast news.

I'm surprised the Danes are taking this stand though, because they are one of the few European countries who save all their Jews during WW2. But I suppose the 2 situations aren't really comparable.

[ebaynut]

So Mint, you can see why no-one on the forum wishes to discuss this

subject. Bit like at the time of the Paris attacks, when the best anyone could

say on this forum was they hoped the FN would not use it against refugees/

asylum seekers/ immigrants/ or whatever else you wish to call them. No real

condemning the terrorists, shows how many on this forum think.

 

Most of the prolific posters on this forum who speak up for the refugees

come from mixed race families and therefore want multiculturalism, and when you

hear of what happened to the lady who was gang raped for a week in Sweden,

all the woman who where sexually abused by them on New years eve in Cologne and

other places, and the change of life they bring about though the attacks in

Paris, they find it increasingly difficult to post reasons why we should

let them into Europe, so then they don't post on this subject.

 

The difference Lindal1000 between a dog and a refugee is that dogs are not

going to get machine guns and murder us, they will live peacefully with us, and

will fit into the European way of live. That is one of the reasons why I do not

want the refugees here, and happily there are many many more who think like

me.

[NickP]

Interesting reading from Lefigaro Sorry for not making the link live, but the system doesn't seem to be co-operating this morning. Very sad but go towards showing why people are worried about the refugee/asylum seeker problems.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/01/26/01016-20160126ARTFIG00377-une-quarantaine-de-coups-de-feu-tires-dans-la-jungle-de-grande-synthe.php

[lindal1000]

You do come up with a lot of tosh sometimes ebaynut. What on earth makes you think that most people who support multiculturalism are from mixed raced families? Unless you count my Welsh grandparents as being mixed race or my great great grandmother who looked like she might have dark skin my family are Londoners through and through.

What scares me the most about all these discussions is not ISIS or migrants or Muslims but that this scapegoating of one group/race..the categorising of a whole race or creed as worse than dogs (ie a subspecies of humanity), the idea that cutting yourself off from the rest of the world will solve all your problems, is sounding dangerously like the kind of Fascism promoted during the 1940s. That is the frightening bit.

I can see no problems at all with discussing these topics..Different points of views are aired and surprise surprise, they don't all agree with you or with each other.

[NickP]

What scares me about these discussions is the constant referring back to the 1940's fascism, concentration camps and dogs, for crying out loud come up with something original and pertinent, it might help your case and make people think; rather than boring them to death.

[Patf]

Now Now ebaynut and Nick - attack the issue, not the person/people.

Personal attacks are signs that you're losing the argument [;-)]

[ebaynut]

The asylum seekers get given homes in Middlesbrough (serves them right I

guess) and then complain the doors of their new homes are painted red, and it

marks them as immigrants. So the company that houses them has to repaint all the

doors black. (Bit like an old Rolling Stones record.

 

What about all those people already on the Middlesbrough housing list,

having to wait even longer for a home because of those which jumped the

queue??

 

And Patf. Where have either Nick or myself personally attacked anyone on

this post?? 

[NickP]

[quote user="Patf"]Now Now ebaynut and Nick - attack the issue, not the person/people.

Personal attacks are signs that you're losing the argument [;-)]

[/quote]

My reply to that nonsense is pots and kettles Pat. The sign you are losing an argument is when spurious comments are put out as facts.

[idun]

I keep trying to reply to this thread and then deleting.

Why should I worry, well, I do. Every time I see any woman in a niqab, it feels like a nail in the coffin of the progress of women's liberty. That is what I believe, not religion.

Anyone see the news yesterday...... well Rouhani was in Rome and in order not to cause offence, the Vatican covered all the wonderful statues of nudes.

Surrendering.... that is how I see it. If you don't want to see nude statues, then do not go to Rome.

Just hope that the french will not be so STUPID as he is on his way or in France. Or maybe more airbus contracts is worth devaluing 'our' culture.

Incidentally I have been to Rome, sadly at some point religious vandals chopped off men's bits on too many of the statues very sad and I find defacing works of art highly offensive.

[woolybanana]

The thought of someone chopping off men's bits makes me shiver; Idun, perhaps they just fell off through lack of use or the cold!

[Rabbie]

I thought that was only a risk for brass monkeys :-)

[lindal1000]

I'm never offended by people's personal comments..:) .

. Scapegoating minority groups when it suits has never really gone away. For example a..the Serbian ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, Ethiopia, Rwanda.. It's just that I've never heard my countrymen talking like that before.. That's what scares me.. I suppose I always thought that the British were more 'decent' than that. I mean if you read through the thread no one can even agree on who it is you hate. Is it all Muslims, just Asylum seekers or refugees? All migrants, or only those with dark skin? Are EU migrants ok?

[woolybanana]

Why do I think that Norman was behind the posting of this thread in the first place? The old goat must be roaring with laughter in his barrel as he sees the mixture of liberalism and racism that is being spouted here, and almost no facts.

What fun, chuckle.

[woolybanana]

linda 10000, you are right, there is a huge chunk of racism in some of our posters, just as there is a good dose of honest liberalism. BUT the whole problem here is the inability of Europe and UK to react and cope with the challenges created by the arrival of these folk; not the scroungers, but the genuine refugees. Which has allowed the right wing, crypto fascists to have a field day, unfortunately.

Not that there should be open doors, in fact, the opposite, what is needed is careful control and integration over a period of time. But, as we saw at New Year, it ain't obvious!

[lindal1000]

I agree with most of what you say Woolly, I do think the EU has handled the situation appallingly and continues to do so. Latest one being asking Greece just to stop the boats arriving. This is near bankrupt Greece... now being expected to finance border control for the whole EU. And exactly how they are supposed to stop people landing in Greece when the alternative is to sit and watch them drown..

I also agree it is not a good idea to dump a load of people from a very different culture into the middle of a big city and expect them to integrate without support. There was a good article about Finland ( I think.) where new immigrants are expected to attend classes about life and culture in the areas where they were living. It seemed to work well and people were very positive about it. It certainly does the EU no favours that the one time they are called on to act together to solve a humanitarian crisis evolving on their doorstep they are like rabbits in the headlights.

[NickP]

 No one has said they hate anybody lindal,  the only hate is yours; in your self centered I'm more caring than you lot. I'm afraid your holier than thou attitude is symptomatic of the reasons that these threads don't work,

[mint]

I, too, am dumbfounded by the use of the word "hate"; where on earth has that come from?

The migrants, their numbers and speed of arrival, seem to have caught all governments by surprise.  There is the clash of cultures already mentioned and no one in their right minds will not pause to consider whether this influx can be managed at all.

Not much use wringing our hands now, of course, the migrants are already here in their hundreds of thousands.  That was what I meant, incidentally, about the migrants being a catalyst for the collapse of the whole concept of Europe as one big, happy political and economic family.  Too many disagreements amongst ourselves (European nations) and therefore cracks are showing everywhere and everyone is getting very bad-tempered.

[YCCMB]

Is it possible to be both self-centred and caring?

Just asking.

[mint]

Sure, Betty, self-centred and self-caring[6]?

[NormanH]

No I wasn't behind this thread.

I can't find anything amusing either in the situation nor in the reactions to it.

I came across this  "Carol" text though, intended to be sung to "Away in a Manger":

(Tune: Kirkpatrick)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAJWrFGIrA&html5=1

Away from all danger and snug in his bed

The great British bulldog lays down his sweet head.

The stars in the bright sky look down where he snores

The great British bulldog, with firmly locked doors.

The child in the night air there shivers and weeps,

But the great British bulldog, how soundly he sleeps.

I love you, great bulldog, please guard me from fear,

And keep all those migrants from entering here.

Be near me, great bulldog, be faithful and stay

Close by me forever and love me I pray;

Love all the dear children who live in this land,

And keep out those other ones – they’ll understand.

[lindal1000]

Since when have I said that I am more caring and compassionate than you.. that is entirely your interpretation of it..but if the coats fits.

I'm sorry but saying that people feel animals are more likeable than humans is a hateful comment. You may disagree..that's your choice.

I'm sorry I disagree with you, Nick, but there you are..that what happens in a debate that is aired on a public forum.

I don't hate you or anyone by the way..although the inability to get emoticons to work on any posts does rather leave the emotional context of the post up to interpretation.

Anyway..no time to write more as off to my 3 hour French class, subsidised by the French government with the aim of aiding immigrants to integrate into the community.