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EU Referendum


Rabbie
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To be honest, Billy Bragg doesn't immediately spring to mind as someone I would foremostly seek out to elicit information.  However I am able to appreciate his sentiments with: "Not all people voting leave are racists, but all racists will vote leave".

I wasn't aware of any UKip posters let alone that one had been reported to the police. I always understood that anybody is able to report pretty well anything to the police. Whether they implement proceedings is, I think, up to the CPS.

regards

cajal

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So Ed Dorrell (Independant) based his research, analysis and conclusions on this following passage from his article.

'But then, two years ago, I went on a business trip to Qatar in the Middle East. 

In one of that city-state's few licensed bars, at two in the morning,

I looked around me and saw the future. I saw the globalised world on a

postage stamp. And it didn't give two hoots about Britain.

In that bar I spotted a scattering of European expats, but most of

the drinkers were from the new global powers. They were Chinese, Indian,

Arab and Russian. They were not listening to UK or US music; they were

listening to African beats and South American pop.
'

I had  to double check the date to make sure it wasn't April 1st.

regards

cajal

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[quote user="cajal"]

To be honest, Billy Bragg doesn't immediately spring to mind as someone I would foremostly seek out to elicit information.  However I am able to appreciate his sentiments with: "Not all people voting leave are racists, but all racists will vote leave".

I wasn't aware of any UKip posters let alone that one had been reported to the police. I always understood that anybody is able to report pretty well anything to the police. Whether they implement proceedings is, I think, up to the CPS.

regards

cajal

[/quote]I am always happy to bring enlightment where people are unawares. This link explains all

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I am always happy to bring enlightment where people are unawares. This link explains all

My first thought on viewing the offending poster was the resemblance it had to the Conservatives ( I think????1978) poster stating 'Labours not working'.

Never really had much interest in what UKip or Nigel Farrage have to say. However, I think a report of this nature will do more harm and undermine racial harmony than a poster, that this time next week, will be forgotten about.

regards

cajal

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The scheme was designed to bring vulnerable Syrian refugees directly from refugee camps in the Middle East to the UK.

Those arriving have been screened and vetted by the UN.

Not much to do with Europe there then....

It is just that sort of dishonest  amalgamation that is the problem with the Brexit non-argument.

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Rabbie wrote,

 

Personally I feel that EU citizens who are

long term residents of the U.K. should be allowed to vote but that's the rules.


 

 

That is indeed one school of thought.  Another is that people who choose to

move both themselves and their wealth from their home country, to start what

they perceive is a better future in another place, should not be allowed to

vote, and influence the country in which they freely choose to leave.

Their main interest in their home country, is of course that their payments

keep arriving in their accounts. What happens in the UK (in this case) other

than that, really does not concern them too much.

 

I have to smile when I read posters on this forum recount their trips back

to the UK, and how busy it is, how congested the UK is now so much more compered

to how it was when they left. How glad they are to return to the peace of their

own area of France. Never mind those of us that have to live in this increasing

full country.  Then these same people plan to vote to for the UK to remain in

the EU and allow the ever increasing flow of people into the country.  Funny old

world for sure, still as long as jacks alright I guess.

 

But as you say Rabbie, those are the rules.
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Lindal wrote,

 

I don't know numbers but I liked the comment

by Billy Bragg. "Not all people voting leave are racists, but all racists will

vote leave".

 

 

 

Ar, the RACE card, so often

played. This is of course where coloured people have the advantage over whites.

They can never be called racist can they??  The thousands who have

tracked across whole continents to arrive at Calais to then enter the UK

illegally in the back of lorries and now on boats are not racist are they?? 

 

We go England”  they say

England is good”.  They care not that they will  take and take

from the UK, and can give nothing in return, how can they?? they cant work

legally, so must obtain any money or goods or food either by crime or hand outs.

But they are not Racist for doing this to the British people are

they?

 

But if someone white in the UK says, “ hey, we

don't want you guys here, we have enough people already with no homes, we have

full schools and not enough money for our NHS, then they are of

course labelled RACIST by their opponents who wish for a ‘diverse’

UK..

As has been said before, the

whites are onto a hiding to nothing here, if the ‘Racist’ word does not work,

and the argument is still being lost, then  there is always the ultimate

attack,
 they are N_A_Z_I_S!!!! 

 

Funny how Donald Trump, a man who has been in

the public eye for over thirty years, was never, ever, even once even hinted at,

as being racist, until of course he announced he was to stand against Clinton

and the Democrats, then the racist claims started.

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Could it be Ebaynut ' that for all the years Trump was in the public eye people just thought of him as something of a comedy turn, multiple publicity ridden marriages, failed businesses, big mouth etc...it only matters that he is racist when he decides he wants to become President ?

As for illegal immigrants, as far as I can see if we leave the EU this will get worse not better. Legal immigrants come here to work and better themselves, pay their taxes and insurance and help pay toward our public services. The problem of having full schools and not enough NHS funding is one of UK government, not the EU.
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R/H wrote,

 

Could it be Ebaynut ' that for all the years

Trump was in the public eye people just thought of him as something of a comedy

turn, multiple publicity ridden marriages, failed businesses, big mouth etc...it

only matters that he is racist when he decides he wants to become President ?

 

No, if the pro democrat press could find even

the smallest hint of racism then it would be major news, and they would milk it

for all its worth. As for his failed companies, of which I believe

there were four or five, compare this, if you will with the FIVE HUNDRED

 plus successful businesses he currently runs.  The mark

of a winner is they never quit, only losers quit. Show me a person

who has never made a mistake and I will show you someone who has never made

anything. Its how you recover from failure that matters. Why, even

Lord Sugar and Mr Branson have had failures along the way.  Most people fall in

a heap on the floor when they fail, getting up and starting again defines a

person. What has Trump said that is so racist??

As for illegal immigrants, as far as I can see if we leave the EU

this will get worse not better. Legal immigrants come here to work and better

themselves, pay their taxes and insurance and help pay toward our public

services. The problem of having full schools and not enough NHS funding is one

of UK government, not the EU.


 

 

Then if you think that illegal immigration would get worse if we left you

would be incorrect in your assumption.   Legal immigrants would still be able to

come here, but in numbers and quality which we need, and suits the UK

population, not in numbers which suit only the immigrants.

As for blaming the government for failing to not have enough schools and

hospitals, I guess you are right, they want us in the EU, so they are too blame

for the huge numbers comings.

But to suggest that if there is a large number arriving every year as there

is, that we could possibly build and have enough of these services available

when we don't know how many are coming is at best laughable.

 

Get us out of the EU and the £350 million a week we pay in could be used to

make our country great again. And yes I know we get some back, but it has to be

spent how the EU tells us, and the rest goes to helping the poorer countries in

the EU, of which there are many now with its ever increasing size. Not forgetting the ministers who have to be kept in the best of everything that is available.

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I completely agree with Ebaynut.

I am fed up with expats living in their cushy sparsely populated idyllic villages in France calling everyone in the UK racist who dares to vote out whilst really they are only interested in protecting their income coming from the UK. I find these people just as bad as the Farage brigade. It is just pure selfishness.

It is totally hypocritical as well. I moved to France and have no ties to the UK and can throughly understand why some in the UK may wish to leave the EU. I don't believe for one minute that the majority of them are racists but just looking out for the country that they live in. What is wrong with that ? How many of these expats look out for France ?

I think these expats should start reading the French news as that should make them more worried than some Britexit vote in the UK.
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[quote user="ebaynut"]

 

I have to smile when I read posters on this forum recount their trips back to the UK, and how busy it is, how congested the UK is now so much more compered to how it was when they left. How glad they are to return to the peace of their own area of France. Never mind those of us that have to live in this increasing full country.  Then these same people plan to vote to for the UK to remain in the EU and allow the ever increasing flow of people into the country.  Funny old world for sure, still as long as jacks alright I guess.

 

[/quote]

I am not usually in agreement with your comments Ebaynut or perhaps the delivery of them but respect your views, the above is bang on the money and that is coming from someone who says those things word for word.

I have not voted however, I am not the slightest bit interestd in the outcome and especially all the arguments, I will cope with whatever way it swings but my Jack is alright as  have a foothold and enough income in either country.

so without getting involved in the politics of it your observation is spot on as is your comment on the irony.

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As someone who is UK resident and exposed to the campaign on a daily basis I have to say that the immigration issue is being exploited by the Leave side with little regard to the facts. Some of the posts on social media are definitely racist.

There is a perception in the UK that immigration is much higher than it actually is along with other misconceptions about the EU. In fact becaue of its rebate the UK pays the lowest contribution measured as a percentage of national income.

Over half the UK immigrants come from countries outside the EU and we have full powers to control this. The fact is that we need these immigrants to do the sort of poorly paid jobs that UK citizens are unwilling to do. This will not change as a result of the referendum and it is IMO dishonest and misleading to say so. I have also seen figures to suggest that the number of EU immigrants is matched by the number of UK citizens living in other EU countries.

It is also interesting that the Prime Ministers of Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India have all come out in support of Britain remaining in the EU as have the vast majority of other world leaders except for Putin. I doubt that Putin has the best interests of the UK at heart.

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As my Passport says "European Union" on the front, in the event that the UK leaves the Union, I wonder if  I can simply apply to have the country below "European Union" changed to "France", since I have lived here for 15 years or so, and prefer to continue to do so?

After all, I was born in a country in the British Empire, and when the country I was born in left the said Empire I continued to hold a Passport as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies rather than my previous citizenship.

I just noticed that when I renewed my Passport in 1983 that "United Kingdom and Colonies" became "BRITISH CITIZEN".

Altenatively, as my country of birth is a EU member, maybe I should claim citizenship there and thus stay as an EU citizen.

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What a load of devious underhand nonsense these arguments for Brexit are; anything to twist and turn and try to hide the fact that they are at heart racist and nationalistic, a little Englanders mentality which seems to regard the Europeans as stupid and unable to think ot react for themselves for others and the Brits a somehow superior. Well, luvvies, the Brits aint and noone cares a sod what they do.

The EU is a growing group of like minded states who are trying to create a superbloc to rival the Americans, the Chinese, the Africans and the Russians. Without doing this they will be swamped, tradewise and politically. Even now, they can be picked off because not sufficiently united.

Being too generous with entry into the euro has caused problems for those countries who should never have been there or who have taken advantage of European largesse to overspend wildly, and who are now suffering the consequences. These problems will be overcome, slowly.

Britain is no more than one of these states, a little one mind you, which has depended on inward investment in much of its industry in such areas a steel, engineering, even electricity. Brexit will see the end of much of this.

Immigration, whether short term or longer has largely benefitted the UK, though there are fringe areas where more control shoukld have been applied. But the immigrants by and large work (not all, though as the Daily Mail and the Sun will tell us) and pay taxes, thus adding to the common pot.

Britain has failed to manage itself in the EU, does not understand how it works or have the guts to get in there and shape the Europe of the future. Rather, it is attempting to pull up the drawbridge and like a spoiled child, is taking back its ball, forgetting that balls are two a penny and that you need a bit iof lawn to play on, which will no longer be there.

As for people who move abroad and they have a different, less blinkered experience and viewpoint of their own country, and contribute validly to the debate; their perspectives from the real world enlarge the debate, a debate which has been twisted by some pretty nasty lies and logic.

Talking to a cousin of mine the other day, who lives in the delightful town of Bridgwater, she was voting 'leave' because Morrisons had started a factory and recruited exclusively Polish labour. She had never bothered to ask the question why (and the answer was not money).

Voting Brexit is a vote for introverted, narcissistic decline as standards of living will slowly fall, taxes will rise as will unemployment. Oh, and lots of thise nice doctors and nurses who keep the NHS going will get up and go.
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Feel like I have just been tarred and feathered by that post.

Wooly you see quite a different europe to me. Would that I could applaud your postivie views, but far from it, I feel like you are wearing blinkers, not me.

When I lived in France I was interested and active, postively involved in my life there. And then there was the Mastrich agreement and it felt like the beginning of a bad road to me and from what I have seen, that is what it was.

I did not want all the eastern block automatically given membership and I did not want all those 19 countries who joined the € in the €.... that turned out well didn't it. And I certainly do not want Turkey in for many reasons.

And really what is wrong with brits wanting their jobs protected? The french have been doing that since I moved there. What with the way some professions have to have separate qualifications which do not fit in with the qualifications from other countries, teachers are a good example. And then not speaking good enough french, is a very good method of precluding people from jobs. The french are experts in keeping stuff inhouse and yet the brits are lambasted for even suggesting it.

As I have said, I live in an area with high unemployment, IF there was as many jobs as when I was young, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, but there are not. And should I want my son to get a job over and above someone from the EU or further afield, too true I do! And for all I can be very generous in this life, there is a line and I am being honest about it.

Now if we went back to a simple multi country trade agreements, that made everything easy, then I would say that would be very very good.

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Idun, I am sure no-one is trying to tar and feather you. Indeed, IMO you make a better case for leaving than the actual campaign has done. We must remember that the concept of the EU arose from the wreckage of the second World War. Churchill saw the need for a United States of Europe to act as a counter balance to both the USA and the Soviet Union and also to prevent a future european war. Whether he wanted Britain to be part of this is less clear but he never ruled it out. After all in 1940 he did offer full union with France.

The high unemployment in the North of England is at least as much due to the London-centric policies of successive UK governments as it is due to membership of the EU. No real attempt has been to help those affected by the decline of the traditional industries such as coal mining and shipbuilding.

The EU has suffered in the UK from being the victim of many so-called Euromyths put about by a largely hostile and foreign owned press. No wonder voters are confused

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Before I left the UK to become an economic migrant, I was working in your area Idun.

The situation then was only a little better than I understand it is now - mines closed, shipbuilding closed, steel reducing numbers dramatically, chemicals reducing numbers dramatically and divesting businesses.

At that time the area was recognised as socially and economically deprived. Consequently it was able to receive a not insubstantial amount of money from the EU to improve the situation. For some reason the receipt of this money was not widely publicised, although you would occasionally see a notice board beside some construction project where at the bottom in small print you might just see "funded by the European Union". What is more the area was eligible for significantly more EU money but we could never get it.

And the reason why, is that:

1. Central UK government had to make the application on behalf of the region and

2. They had to match the EU money on a 1:1 basis.

The cynic in me says that a Conservative government did not see any votes in such investment. Ergo, no applications were made.

Whether that view is right or wrong, the fact is that a lack of investment by the UK government restricted the amount of money forthcoming from the EU.

As far as I can see nothing has changed in the interim - although why the years of Labour government did not result in a significant change I do not know.

The only data I can find is for 2000-2006 where the EU Economic Social Fund brought £196m to the North East of England. It could have been and should have been more but Westminster, not Brussels, as the stumbling block.

Now that was then and we are now here. The only case I am aware of in 2016 is post the Carlisle floods at the end of 2015. The city and its residents were eligible for a very substantial amount of EU money from the disaster fund (100% funding so no Westminster input). It took 3 months (and a hell of a lot of pressure) for Westminster to make an application. 3 months with people whose houses had been devastated; 3 months for the council to wonder how it could rebuild/refurbish its schools, offices and other sites.

I understand and respect your dislike for the EU, but sometimes I wonder whether your hatred (I think you have used that word several times) actually blinds you to the true situation.
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Ebaynut

Immigration - and I promise not to play the race card

From the strength of your post and your statement that the UK could tailor the number of immigrants to those that it needed and could handle, I assume (and I could be wrong) that you would favour a significant reduction from the levels that are currently in the UK.

Let us assume that were possible (and forget about the Vienna Convention and whether that may or may not apply - I actually doubt it does). So if you could be in control of the current migrants, who would you be sending back home?

I ask this in all seriousness, because as far as I can see immigration is going to go in the other direction.

The NHS will be receiving a lot more money, but the UK does not have the number of nurses, doctors and technical staff to cope now, let alone with more hospitals, surgeries etc.. So I see immigration as the solution.

More is going to be spent on schools and education, but the UK does not produce enough teachers - in fact for several years there have been vacant places in teacher training courses. Such is the way governments have degraded a profession to a handle turning exercise where STATS and GCSEs are the only success criteria. So extra teachers will come from where? Immigration?

Who is going to work in the fields on a cold December day picking the vegetables for Christmas? Brits do not seem to want to do it. Or are we going to force the population into the fields against their will? Pol Pot tried that and it was not the greatest success.

So who would you be sending home? And don't say the illegals because they get sent home anyway when the have been found.
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Ah Andy, the Brexit group only say the savings 'could' buy new hospitals, they don't actually say they will build them....and I doubt they could afford the sort of plans they speak of after they have paid for beefed up security at the French and Irish borders ( and probably Scottish in the fullness of time )

And of course they will have to replace the EU grants those in the North of Scotland, North of Ireland, Wales and Cornwall will be losing.

And why is it that two of the countries we'd suddenly be free to do deals with, India and China, have Prime Ministers who would prefer us to stay in.....?
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RH

In or Out, drastic measures are needed in the NHS.

This link might be interesting

http://www.exposingtruth.com/new-research-9-10-poorest-areas-northern-europe-located-uk/

9 out of 10 poorest regions in Northern Europe are in the UK. If this is correct, then for the 5th largest economy in the world to allow this to happen points to systematic mismanagement or even abuse by Westminster. Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Lithuania - all for years under the Soviet yoke - do better. And before someone says it, yes with EU money some of which will have come from the UK. It seems they have spent their euro dollars well and have supported their citizens.

It strikes me that many of Britain's woes are being laid at the doors of Brussels by UK politicians who have failed dismally to do the things that they should have been doing.
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I agree' but I don't think coming out will necessarily be the answer, at least not for some time...and no time scale is even guessed at.

Like you I suspect that responsibility for failures in UK government is being conveniently moved to the the EU.....just as some don't know the difference between the European Court of a Human Rights and the EU, others don't recognise the difference in government and EU responsibilities.
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I see The Times has now come out in favour of the UK remaining in the EU. Does this reflect the fact that a majority of Times readers also favour remain? It is also noticable that the Scottish edition of the Sun also supports staying in. It seems the Murdoch press seems to reflect the views of its readers rather than take a lead based  on logic and reason.

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