EU Referendum

[Rabbie]

With only 10 days to go before we know the result (looking more and more likely to be a win for Brexit) does anyone else feel disappointed in the way the campaign has been conducted by both sides. The Brexit side seem determined to repeat inaccurate statements about the sums of money involved and have no problems spending the same money numerous times. The remain side have failed to date to produce any good reasons for staying in and concentrated solely on scare tactics. The one exception has been Gordon Brown who has put a positive case for staying in.

I personally will be voting to remain because I believe in the absence of other evidence that it is in the best interests of the UK to do so. I also find it significant that foreign leaders wanting a Brexit include Putin who I am sure is motivated only by what is in his own interests. The vast majority of leaders have come out in favour of our remaining.

If there is a Brexit vote then it will take 2 years to negotiate the leaving terms and an indeterminate period afterwards while the remaining EU countries ratify the agreement.

Over 50% of UK immigrants come from outside the EU and so we currently can control their numbers. It is naive to suggest that we can reduce this in the future by a significant amount. I also think it unlikely that the EU will give us a wonderful deal without it costing us. Trade negotiations tend to favour the larger partner and I can see no reason to believe this will be different.

I know there are people who take a different view and I hope they will express it in a calm, reasonable and friendly manner. We all have a right to our views so can we discuss this without personal abuse. 

[Pierre ZFP]

I agree with everything you say.  I am also astounded by some of the exit arguments.  One I heard this morning was 'We don't want Brussels making our laws'. The implication being that they were all bad and punitive.

What about regulations to make cars safer and more economical? or animal welfare on farms?  I eat meat and if a pig is going to die for me I like to think it has had a reasonable life. Or even things as simple as the size of cement bags? Limited now to 20 (or is it 25?) Kg. sounds a bit daft until you consider the backs and knees of builders over the years.  I'm sure there is unwanted legislation but on the whole, mostly good I think.

[idun]

I saw Gordon Brown on tv and thought he was very very good.

Still, I am wondering why the figures are apparently so wrong from the brexit campaign? And if so,  are they  'right' from the remain in campaign.

[YCCMB]

I am avoiding it as much as is humanly possible, but it seeps into every tiny corner. As I made my mind up before it was even decided that there would be a referendum, and I have no plans to change it, the constant bombardment of same old,same old, with such rancour and bitterness thrown in, hardly encourages anyone, let alone those looking for information, to listen in any more than a cursory manner.

I was appalled, however, at the attempt yesterday by the Farage branch of Brexit, to use the atrocity in Orlando to score points about immigration. That really was a new low.

[alittlebitfrench]

Whilst this is a Brexit vote the point must be made that (given this is a French forum) polls would suggest that the French would vote out of the EU too if they were given the chance.

Don't make the mistake in thinking that this is 'right wing' thing. It has nothing to do.

Exciting times.

[Pierre ZFP]

Well it's Game Over now The Sun has come out and said vote Exit.

The huddled masses will do what Murdoch tells them to do.[:@]

[DerekJ]

I keep hearing pro-Remain campaigners say things like "of course the EU has problems and needs reforming but we can best do that from staying within the EU".

Seriously, does anyone think it likely the EU will reform itself whether we stay in or leave?

Quite the opposite I feel.

[Chancer]

What do you want to know, - Other peoples views?

 

Mine is that I will not be in the slightest bit bothered whichever way it goes, if its out then that will create lots of opportunities and I like change but thats no reason to vote or even listen to all the stuff that is spouted.

Que sera, sera.

[Chancer]

Ok, so now I can see your question, was anyone dissapointed by the negative campaigns, neither surprised nor dissapointed, I have only heard a few seconds before switching off or changing channels.

[andyh4]

I think the Brexit team have played a blinder; coming up with the Project Fear label for the remainers. Then they tell us about being overrun with immigrants, maximum 2 bananas in a bunch, 70m Turks arriving in August, straight cucumbers etc..

[lindal1000]

Brace yourself for the triple dip recession then. Don't say you weren't warned.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/brexit-fears-wipe-20-billion-off-ftse-100-in-shares-meltdown-a3271356.html

[woolybanana]

What is sad is the extent to which Brexit is encouraging racism as the basis of their campaign. Given the support this seems to garner, one must assume that the mindset of the average Brexit voter is just plain racist, chauvinist, nationalistic and nasty, white van man, in fact.

Of course, there may be a few who are not racists and who have genuine reasons for leaving, but those have not been presented in any coherent sense. Rather, a bunch of has-been politicians and one ambitious clown.

By the way, what happens if Leave get a majority of those voting but less than 50% of the total population? Would Parliament be entitled to throw the result out. And just what does happen if they vote the referendum result down anyway, either in the Commons or the Lords?

[Rabbie]

If there is a narrow win for Brexit on a relatively low turnout then Parliament could overturn the result. Hopefully not as that would almost certainly provoke a constitutional crisis and probably an early General Election. I hope that the result will respected by all regardless of the result.

In the exit case perhaps the terms for leaving should be put to another referendum as I am sure they will not be as good as the Brexiteers would have us believe. Time will tell.

[Gardengirl]

Our son has our proxy votes and he feels the same way as us - to remain.

I've been amazed at how the leave team have been so openly racist at times, and they've definitely spent the 'savings' several times over.

Don't know who it was on our internet radio thus morning, a 'leave' representative who used 'let me make this clear' at least 6 times, insisting that out of the very long list that they claim they will do, only 2 were definitely going to be funded - sorry, can't remember which two they were, as I think I mentally switched off it was so mind-numbing.

At two events this weekend and another today with 98 French friends and us, everyone was saying we couldn't possibly leave, it was impossible to think of the EU without the very fair British. However, quite a few also added that they wished they could have a referendum as they would vote to leave.

[NormanH]

I have been seriously depressed about the ugly underbelly  which has surfaced.

There are many arguments against the EU as it stands that could convince me, such as the element of corporatism, the lack of direct accountability or the sums f money wasted in the bureaucracy, but most of the readers' comments I read in the press reveal ignorance, prejudice and manipulation by the gutter press.

Rupert Murdoch said: “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”
That explains a lot..

Much comes down to xenophobia and racism:

a few quotations from comments on a friend's pro EU post on Facebook

"They want to dump there (sic) refugees on us"

" I'm referring to the EU being run by a unelected bunch of nazis.....

"Man up b4 its toooooooo late... Merkle as her jackboots on & she's gonna walk all over you

 On the Remain side I have been appalled at the emphasis on the negatives which have reached ridiculous levels of saying things like a Brexit could provoke WW111

rather than clearly showing the benefits for the UK (Wales or Northern Ireland for example) that have come from membership.

In both case the misuse of statistics and the attempts to frighten have been sickening.

The only honest thing that could be said is that if you vote to leave no-one knows what the consequences will be, and if the vote is stay no-one knows where the EU is heading...

I of course regard the idea of democracy winning in some way as being ironic since the government has denied me a vote on the issue despite the promise made before the election by Cameron

 

[PaulT]

Totally agree that the campaigns run by Remain and Leave have been totally awful.

Vote LEAVE and millions of pounds will pour in to the NHS - surely funding of the NHS is in the domain of the elected government.

As for if there has been a low turnout and a very slender majority of LEAVE the government can decide not to abide by the outcome of the referendum - in that case, in a normal election if there is a low turnout and the winner only wins by a small majority then that will not count...like hell.

Can understand why other EU countries want the UK to stay as it is a net contributor....probably be different if it was the other way round.

And the REMAIN scare tactics totally unbelievable especially the £9M document the government put out - in the 70s the document about joining the EEC put the pros and cons so very much fairer.

and now Mr Murdoch placing The Sun in to the campaign.........is he not a resident of another country? Must be money to be made and heaven help us if decisions are made by sheep.

[woolybanana]

Were it not for the tragedy which could be about to unfold, the whole of this referendum business could be seen as a joke; the revenge of the Captain Mainwarings, the older version of White Van Man!

[Thibault]

I have been looking at the stuff posted on a couple of FB groups and in both around 98% of posts are for out. I have been astonished at the tone taken by the out people who seem to think that leaving the EU will release the UK from the grips of a totalitarian regime whose only purpose is to recreate the Third Reich and destroy the UK.

Any negative case for leaving is greeted with shouts of 'project fear', lies. and scaremongering, whereas every utterance no matter how unrelated to reality put forward by the out side is greeted with metaphorical cheers and applause.

As for spending the money 'saved' by leaving - this has been 'spent' so many times on so many different causes, I find it difficult to believe anyone could believe any of it!

[mint]

I am afraid that Cameron will be the author of his own downfall and that of the country.  I put HIS downfall first because I think that is how he would perceive it.

As Merkel has pointed out, there is no need for us to have this referendum at all.  Cameron thought this up because he thought it would be popular at the time of the general election.

Now the conservatives have turned this whole issue into a jostling for position for the "top job" in the Conservation party.

The naked ambition and self-serving of some of the politicians involved have to be seen to be believed.

[NormanH]

I re-post my little poem:

Two rival leaders from their days at School

In covert battle to impose their rule.

Bully-boy Boris, brilliant yet Buffoon;

And Dave the Dullard with a silver spoon

Minted from wealth off-shore. One has his wits

And governs London Town. The City shits

Are puppet masters for the other clown.

Dave fights for survival, Boris for renown--

The scores they settle one can only guess.

Dave is half-hearted; Boris, emptiness.

While Brexit threatens these two would be great

And let ambition rule affairs of State.

[idun]

I have never liked the EU and in the last twenty five years too much has appalled me, including all the eastern european countries entering, and what I consider no proper accounting done before letting so many countries join the €.

This has nothing to do with racism, although for the life of me I do not know what that is these days.  If it is to do with the colour or look of a person, I care not, if they are lilly white to deep black and all the nuances of  all the colours of the human race inbetween, or about the way they look, I simply do not care.

I care about a lot of things, and cultural differences to me are very very different, and that is choice and absolutely nothing to do with how a person looks and I unashamedly do not like many things in other cultures, I do not even like everything in 'mine' but at least I feel that mine can be addressed in some way.

And down to the immigration thing. I live in an area with high unemployment. The government does stupid things about the unemployment, which I have seen first hand. For all we have the high unemployment, we are being sent immigrants by literally the bus load. So who is paying, will they be getting jobs over and above locals? I do not know. I do know that housing is found, and yet, everytime I go into a local big town, I literally go out of my way to find a young man who has been homeless and is now in terrible accommodation. He cannot get one of these decent places that are being given away as if they are easily available. And for all this young man is slowly digging himself out of the sad hole he is in, it is laborious and depressing. I buy him clothes, a warm coat, gloves, a hat and give him supermarket vouchers. I'd rather help in that way than give him cash, as he sometimes 'slips'. In fact sometimes I buy for him and not buy what I had gone for in the first place, because I am not well off.

So why are there not things for 'him' and yet money is found for others who chose not to live in their own countries? ......  In fact I know a lot of very sad people here who could do with a hand and there is nothing for them, literally nothing.  So if it looks like racism to anyone else, well, I don't care what you think. Once I see those who need a hand where I live, being treat properly, then maybe I could feel some generosity to those who are not from here. Until then, well, it is what it is and I do not want it.

And maybe others around here have not assessed their feelings about this, but their gut instinct is probably making them feel as I do.  There is a prevailing feeling of wanting out.

I have not even mentioned the fishing...... because I know quite a few working fishermen. OR the human rights act...... grrrrrrrrrrrr when the victim can end up being treat like they are not at fault and not the perp and votes for prisoners............grrrrrrrr

And me living in France, without going into my personal situation, we would have been there, in or out of the EU, the UK  being in the EU had nothing to do with anything concerning our move to France and it was not an easy move when we moved.

[lindal1000]

For what it's worth my prediction is still a remain win 51% to 49% with a 70% turnout..this is my gut feeling.

I think what you describe Idun, is the result of 7 years of austerity measures. It is always those at the lower end who suffer the most. The EU is an easy target to blame, but how many of the immigrants near you are from EU countries? Conversely though, when the UK plunges into recession it will be less attractive to migrants from everywhere, so I guess in the end out may get it's way on that one.

I feel truly sad for the UK if they do vote out. I'm a resourceful person and we already have plans to cope, but I feel sorry for the people who are hoping that this will drag them out of a hole, when in reality it will just dig them down deeper. I have a few friends with businesses in France that are already insisting that clients from the UK must pay up front for services, as a precaution against a crash in the pound and them not having the money any more. Just glad I am here and not there.

[alittlebitfrench]

What services do they need to pay up front for ?

[lindal1000]

I don't know exactly what this person sells, but they were asking for a years money up front. Maybe something IT related? .

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

I have not even mentioned the fishing...... because I know quite a few working fishermen. OR the human rights act...... grrrrrrrrrrrr when the victim can end up being treat like they are not at fault and not the perp and votes for prisoners............grrrrrrrr

[/quote]

Idun, I respect your views on the EU which you have never made a secret of.  I do sympathise with our fishermen and we should try harder to get a better deal for them However, I do disagree strongly with your views on the Human Rights Act. It was something that Churchill fought for and he instigated the formation of the European Court of Human Rights which is not an EU court.

To repeal the Human Rights Act would send a powerful message to people like Putin that these basic rights are not important. To me this act is a sign of a civilised society.

We should become an active member and lead the drive for reforms within the EU