The next target group will be pensioners

[YCCMB]

It will nevertheless be interesting to see how this changes over the coming months and years....

http://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

[andyh4]

Oh dear Chessie

you didn't read and believe that load of facebook drivel did you?

Full of fantasies and misleading statements.

Even the Daily Mail cannot fins evidence of an EU grant for Ford moving transit production to Turkey.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366138/End-era-British-car-manufacturing-Inside-Fords-Southampton-factory-close-doors-final-time-century-car-production.html

Another example from the Facebook hoax is the Cadbury move to Poland.

Kraft foods who had taken over Cadbury (and given assurances that production would remain in the UK) decided to close a number of production lines. The EU stepped in and in an attempt to stop Kraft taking the production to the US or Asia offered a grant to keep it in the EU. Kraft chose Poland.

The rest of the list is similarly litter with lies and inaccuracies.

[NormanH]

Here is just the sort of article I was expecting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-financial-economic-impact-older-generation-bankrupting-young-a7107666.html

[YCCMB]

But, Norman, the premise is not entirely without merit. Practically anyone who is not already a pensioner is seeing the benefit (and I use the term literally here, not with any of the perjoraive connotations associated) of their future pension being eroded: either by the fact that they can't claim it until much later than they envisaged, or, for those with private pensions, by the pathetic levels of interest now being accrued. Meanwhile, those already in receipt of pensions - who are now increasing in number at an unprecedented rate - have the triple lock to thank for at least a reasonable degree of financial security. Unless they choose to live abroad, they aren't affected by the up and downs of exchange rates etc., many have little or no personal debt, job worries or other financial concerns.

As was widely reported after the referendum, the average time an older voter may have to live with the consequences of Brexit is 16 years. In other words, lots of pensioners will not live long enough to be able to say "I told you so" if their utopian view of the world post-Brexit was accurate, and certainly not long enough to see how things do pan out for the under-30's.

It is remarkably easy to make decisions if they don't cost you anything.

I appreciate your world view as one where there is an equitable division of wealth, but in a world where it is increasingly perceived by everyone that they are a special case, either everyone or no-one must be a special case. This isn't about punishing anyone. Or rather, it is. It's about punishing the young. And part of that punishment, voluntarily or not, is being inflicted by the old. Why shouldn't the old take any responsibility? Is there some weird deference to age that prevents it?

There are people in their 70's now,happily retired on state pensions, who probably never think about the fact that if they'd been born 40 years later, they'd still be working at 70 and possibly beyond. Which is sad, because it's the people who were born 40 years later who are enabling todays 70-year-olds to enjoy the benefit of a nice retirement.

[Rabbie]

As a State Pensioner I resent being blamed for the Brexit vote when I have been doing my best to help the Remain campaign. I must admit I made my choice on what I considered to be in my own best interests and what I saw as being the best for the country.

I do feel that those who led the Brexit campaign should have had a clearer plan in place rather than just  vague promises about a utopian future. Cynic that I am, I will not be surprised if any savings made as a result of Brexit and mostly spent on tax breaks for the very rich.

[NormanH]

Yes Betty, you have said this before, and you express it reasonably and logically, so what you say has force.

I would certainly agree that some of the 'benefits' given to older people such as free bus passes might be means tested or, as in France, given to job seekers rather than being age-related.

This is easier for me to say since of course apart from the OAP I don't receive any of them, but self-interest isn't my principle motivation.

What alarms me is the continuous angry shifting of blame.As I said in my OP it has been targeted at various groups, and having voted for Brexit with the possible negative economic effects of that decision I think that pensions may become next in the sights.

Just as the referendum was marred by a lack of accurate information and an abnegation of responsibility by the Government (who have for example never explained the difference between a referendum and an election, nor the fact that the UK has a representative democracy not a direct one, so the result needs to be ratified by Parliament before being acted upon), in the same way the venom directed towards the older generation is marred by a lack of knowledge of the hardships they endured.

[woolybanana]

What hardships? Anybody under about 75 to 80 has had a pretty good ride compared with previous generations.

[PaulT]

The 'retired voted for Brexit' is only based on polls not actual votes cast and polls only ask a small section of the population.

The driving forces behind Leave are in their early 50s so not quite pensioners.

As for means tested benefits I always remember two people who were about to retire when I started work. They both did the same jobs and one complained to me:

'When we retire I will get nothing additional because I have saved all my life but he (the other person) will get all sorts of help because he has pi55ed his money up against the wall all his life'.

And haven't pensioners been targetted recently? I will get my pension next year when I am 65 but the following year it goes up to 66. My wife will not get hers at 60 but it was changed to 65 and again to 66.

Perhaps they should grade how votes of the age groups count - for instance, 18 - 30 one vote, 31 - 40 0.75, 41 to 60 0.50 and over 60 0.25 :)

[Russethouse]

You may have done Wooly, it didn't feel like that to me at the time......

[woolybanana]

RH, I think we are of roughly the same generation, give or take the odd year.

We had food, work opportunities a plenty, virtually free study if wanted, relatively easy access to mortgage and house prices within our salary ranges.

Taxes were not too bad, society was by and large peaceful, except when certain union leaders took themselves for Bobo.

Unlike the present generation which is stuck with unregulated rents and house prices that are obscene, plus the cost of studying what is just plain cruel. And low wages in many cases.

Or some have been brainwashed into believing it all comes on a benefits plate, though this may at last be disappearing.

Surely we had it good.

[mint]

[quote user="NormanH"]

What alarms me is the continuous angry shifting of blame.As I said in my OP it has been targeted at various groups, and having voted for Brexit with the possible negative economic effects of that decision I think that pensions may become next in the sights.

d.Just as the referendum was marred by a lack of accurate information

and an abnegation of responsibility by the Government (who have for

example never explained the difference between a referendum and an

election, nor the fact that the UK has a representative democracy not a

direct one, so the result needs to be ratified by Parliament before

being acted upon), in the same way the venom directed towards the older

generation is marred by a lack of knowledge of the hardships they endure

[/quote]

How entirely I agree with you!

So, an easy ride then for young folk who had to start work quite often still in their teens, had to leave the family home younger, got married younger, took on financial responsibility younger, had little state help with the care of young children and the elderly, had to find ways of buying and/or renting their homes (higher interest rates and same unscrupulous private landlords), had little state help and regulation for maternity/paternity leave, job security during pregnancy and the immediate post partum period, live with MUCH lower expectations, and so on and so on.  If anyone wants to challenge any of this, please feel free to do so and I will provide you with my own take on things.

We older folk, often now with failing physical and mental health, cannot surely be blamed too harshly for wanting to cling on to old "certainties" though goodness knows they weren't so certain and there was in fact no "golden age"?

As for the referendum itself, we could argue forever as to whether it was the right way to go about things.  Norman, thank you for pointing out about REPRESENTATIVE government.  Why have we voted for these people and why do we pay them so much if they can't properly debate and make the necessary decisions that their job and their public service demand?

[NormanH]

Some examples of accusations that are being thrown.

1) Free University education. Yes my fees were paid for, but only a very small % of us were able to go, and that had to be gained by very hard academic work. For example for my entrance examination I had to be able to translate unseen passages  from 3 languages  (at least one Greek or Latin) into English. That was to read English, not Modern languages.

One could say it was pointless, but I defy anyone to say it was easy.

2) Houses.  Although prices were lower,  interest rates in the past were often high enough to make it hard to meet payments

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/10942/housing/house-prices-

and-interest-rates/

When I left the UK my house was in negative equity which is hardly heard of nowadays

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/mortgages/9954218/Negative-equity-2013-not-as-bad-as-1995.html

3) 'Standard of living

I was brought up with rationing, and clothes bought from Co-op club books with little choice.

My parents never had a car or colour TV or washing machine and only had a telephone after my mother's final illness made it essential

In my marriage we got a washing machine after the birth of my son, my wife's third child; we could never afford more than  a rickety second-hand car (which I left for my wife to use) and I cycled 7 miles each way to work. Central heating and double glazing were unheard of and the washing up was done by hand by the person who hadn't cooked the meal

Leisure was going out for a walk and holidays were camping nearby.

Of course in comparison to pre-war "we had never had it so good", but much of the envy directed towards baby-boomers is because of the comfort of their lives in retirement, but ignorance of the difficulties they want through in their 30s and 40s , the age of Generation Whine.

[woolybanana]

So, plenty of opportunities, then Norman, some of which you grasped with both hands from what you say. And many more than the pre-war generation.

Presumably you were not forced to leave home early or to work to keep your folks.

Oh, and free health cover, of course.

We both started from the same point but the routes traced are very different.

Neither you nor Nimt have changed my view.

[Russethouse]

Every generation has its challenges - my school would have liked me to stay on but as their reason seemed to be so that I could be a teacher I left ! Most children now have the option of uni, expensive though it is...if they are passionate they can do it. (although personally I think costs are too high atm )

As far as house purchase, we had to wait and queue for a mortgage and then to add to our chances we had to have an endowment which of course for many people didn't pay out anywhere near enough to cover the amount they hoped.

Like Norman we paid pretty close to 16% in interest...we had no holidays for many years and my OH had two jobs most of our married life.. (and no company pension )at one time we had 7 jobs between us - no foreign holidays, no designer labels, no wardrobe of shoes or handbags, mobile phones or sky contracts all things which younger people seem to want in addition to a house.

The first day we took possession of our house we had nothing but a mattress and bedding, we looked in the local paper and found a second hand cooker and my mother in laws next door neighbour by chance changed her three piece suite that day and let us have her old seating units. Later my mothers neighbour offered us her old suite (which was very solid ) These days the idea of second hand seems to horrify many younger people. Whatever we have we worked for. So while I'm sorry for younger people and know its difficult (we have a daughter madly saving for a house right now ) I don't actually feel to blame.

[YCCMB]

The weird thing for me is that, whilst criticising the young for having a sense of entitlement (nobody here has necessarily used the term, but I'm sure that's at least part of the sentiment), the reasons being put forward for the older generation to be able to protect their position are largely based on that same sense of entitlement. "We put up with X, y and z, so we deserve this".

I'm a product of the tail end of that same baby boom as most of the rest of you. Like Paul's wife, my retirement age has been deferred for six years beyond the date it was expected. Unfortunately, by the time I was made aware of this, it was a bit too late for me to have time to compensate for that in my medium term plans, but I count myself lucky that at least I'm very likely to be able to retire before I'm too old and doddery to enjoy doing so. I got free university tuition, bought my first flat with Mr Betty when interest rates were around 17.5%, prices were affordable and we both had good jobs and good prospects. My parents were never rich, but never poor, either. My dad was a graduate in an era where it was even more unusual than in the 60's and 70's....but all of that is a big "so what" for me, as I don't believe that it confers any special rights on me, I don't feel especially badly done by, and I have enjoyed a good working life, an interesting career and family life.

My children may have had many advantages that weren't enjoyed by my own or my parents' generation, but they both have significant student debt. They have both worked hard - extremely hard. - for what the have today. Neither of them has had much time when they didn't do some sort of job since they got paper rounds at the age of 14 or so. My eldest son is an artist, living and working in London, and in addition to his rent, he has to pay rent on a shared studio space. To fund this, he works three days a week as an art technician in a school, and to supplement that income he also works as a technician installing and dismantling art exhibitions. Yesterday when we spoke, he told me that he's just coming up to his 19th consecutive day of working without a day off. He wasn't complaining, just saying he was "a bit tired". And in one way, he's lucky (if you can call it that) because he STILL isn't earning enough to have to pay back his student debt!

There is a certain lack of empathy and appreciation on both sides of this particular generational divide, but there is a very strong chance that the vote to leave the EU has not only left th next generation with a massive financial void to fill in order to keep today's pensioners pensions safe, but with fewer options and opportunities to enjoy the flexibility of choice in terms of employment and job mobility that we have been fortunate enough to experience.

And as for the older generation and their "failing health"...does that generation expect that the same advantageous arrangements they currently enjoy in terms of cheap healthcare will still be available in 20'years' time? Because, much as I dearly hope to be completely wrong about this,I sincerely doubt it. So add paying for their healthcare to the tab they're going to have to pick up in the future.

[woolybanana]

Interesting, these stories.

My dad's career was stopped after the war as prewar he had worked with German companies. Afterwards he could not bring himself to do so again, particularly as one of his former German contacts and colleagues had an Iron Cross for shooting down Allied airmen and my uncle was shot down over France. (He now rests in the Abbeville war graves)

So, seeing what they did not like in UK, they went abroad where hard work brought its own reward, returning to UK about 10 years later.

After secondary school I want to Uni. thrice, at the expense of the taxpayer, then abroad.

Getting married, I only had enough money to pay for a ring, but money abroad and housing allowances meant we put money away regularly.

Out first furniture was either made by me, was Fina blowup beach chairs, or was purchased in the funduk.

Later, bought a house with a small mortgage which I hated as it seemed like slavery, so earned enough abroad again to pay it off in three years. Can't say they liked it being paid off as it was supposed to have advantages, and could not understand that I regarded it as a burden.

And so on, until I decided to retire at 49 to do other things, buying a comfy place in France to do so and using capital to create an income.

Later, I was grabbed by the Belgians for a few years, which should have been a few months, but that is the Belgians.

Always had work, in part through the British Council, who were also kind enough to pay for my MA in part.

My kids both did Uni. and daddy paid off the fees debt for one of them (the other had no fees as she was in Belgium). But they do have it much harder now, particularly to buy property, even in Belgium where rents are more structured.

I have been trying to get them to see if they can get Canadian papers as I reckon they would have a better life, but they seem reluctant to try.

My biggest regret - coming back to Europe.

[PaulT]

Just to side track with some humour and no disrespect to anyone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Judith]

I was "late" getting married, at 23.  Our first house, bought in a very bad state, and done up my OH and FIL over a period of several years, was initially furnished with a new bed and a new cooker (I refused to use someone else's bed and cooker).  Everything else was second hand, and was for several years, I remember the second hand washing machine from my Grandma, leaked floods the first time we used it (nice clean floor at least!), and was eventually replaced. 

17 % mortgage, yes, if you could get one at all, then divorce, and no money until house was sold, unemployment etc etc.  Mint, RH have already described something similar ... there might have been lots of jobs (supposedly) but there was also lots of competition ....

We are in the relatively good position we are in now, and ONLY since retirement and the "loss" of the mortgage, simply because we never let the bad times get to us, we girded our loins and just got on with it.

I am not saying it was harder for us than it is for young people now, but expectations are different, as are the circumstances.  Thus we are not comparing like with like.

[YCCMB]

But whose expectations, and whose cirrcumstances?

Today's pensioners seem to have an expectation that their pensions should grow and grow, (in line with inflation, or the RPI, or whatever they do grow in line with) whilst the working population are told to tighten their belts and be glad of it. Thus, as I said previously, and as Judith seems to echo, those who HAVE retired are comfortable, in a way that coming generations may never experience, and wish that comfort to remain sacrosanct and inviolate..because they believe they're entitled to it for having worked so hard and made do with a secondhand sofa. (As an aside, who seriously believes that today's young people MUST have everything new? Only a couple of weeks ago son#2 and his GF took over our Chesterfield, which was our own first new sofa...a wedding present in 1982. Never have I been so glad to get rid of n item of furniture, but it refused to die)

Life was hard then. Life is hard now. Life is always hard in some way or another. But surely, if you feel you deserve a pension that you've worked so hard for, you can see that future generations deserve it too, and if they have to sacrifice just so you're OK, whilst you aren't prepared to budge, that's just as much of a social injustice as anything else?

[chessie]

It seems that some points on here are being based on how - financially - things are at the moment.   But we do not know how the world's economy is going to grow or not;  we do not know if the eu's economy is going to grow - or not;  we do not know what will happen to the UK's economy.

We do not know if interest rates will remain low - which is great for those who are buying a home on a mortgage;  house prices seem to be going down - which is good news, at the moment, for those who want to buy a home - the young ones.

Low interest rates hits savers - the young ones - but also those in middle years, and the retired who have no hope of being able to build up any savings - but are living on what they ahve managed to save whilst working.

We just have to make the best of how things are;  but we don't know if they are going to get better for the world, for the eu, for the UK - or worse.

Seems to me that a lot of nonsense is talked about 'growth' - and the need for increasing number of working people to support the elderly etc.

That is a Ponzi scheme - because looking at today's 20 and 30 year olds - what size population of younger working people are going to be needed when today's 20 and 30 year olds become the OAPs of the future.

Population growth - wherever in the world - is not sustainable - and any greenie or environmentalist knows this, deep in their hearts, even though a lot will not admit it.

And unplanned, unknowable population growth puts enormous strains on existing populations... which is where some of us have said enough is enough - and it is not fair to existing UK citizens - including immigrants - for there to be continued, increasing, unknowable population numbers.

---

I did wonder if someone would be kind enough to post the Monty Python - because it was beginning to feel like that.   But I do enjoy reading about other people's backgrounds, chances - or not - of education and enjoyable jobs.   Some on here have had difficult starts and made the most of their lives;  some have had extremely comfortable starts to their lives - and have continued to have enjoyable and comfortable lives.   Character making for some obviously.

Called life and stuff.

As for Brexit - please read some of the plans for the future of the eu - and think deeply about what the 'elites' really are planning.   It is not just in the UK that there are concerns - deep concerns about the future progress of the eu - some of the plans are disturbing unless you are happy to be a controlled little number person.  (I am NOT a number !!)

I am sorry that the initial dream of the Common Market disappeared;  it was a hopeful time for most of us;  but the 'elites' in their power hungry way destroyed a thriving community of 6 equally similar countries in history, culture, laws etc.    To see the dream diluted into 27 countries - and counting - really is un-natural - and does involve loss of culture and identity - all those things which have to be destroyed so that nations can be controlled.......  I am deeply pessimistic about the future of the large, ever-expanding eu;  it was not my dream - and has been destroyed.

[PaulT]

The biggest horror for me with the younger generation is the very easy ability to get in to debt, be it via credit cards or via the easy loans that are advertised on the TV at such attractive interest rates - for the companies. Very easy to get in to a spiral of debt whilst still needing the latest smartphone so you can apply for the loans.

[Russethouse]

Frankly I think you just have to deal with what hand you are dealt - when we were paying huge interest on our mortgage we could have railed against those getting substantial interest on their savings...its pointless.

But I don't feel to blame - we got on with whatever life threw at us and made the best we could in the circumstances....we can't go backward

[andyh4]

YCCMB wrote

Today's pensioners seem to have an expectation that their pensions should grow and grow, (in line with inflation, or the RPI, or whatever they do grow in line with) whilst the working population are told to tighten their belts and be glad of it.

Unquote

While I understand the agreement and have to agree with the inequality, there is another side to the argument.

I have 39 years UK contributions and await a UK state pension.

I have 8 years German contributions which I am currently drawing on having retired early from the German system.

My German state pension is more than anything I would expect from the UK - and would remain so if the exchange rate went to the heady days of 1€=64p.

Now I cannot tell you how that works out, but it is what it is, and it seems to me that something is very wrong with the UK pension return.

While there are many from and in the UK who are undoubtedly living very comfortable lives on their final salary pensions plus their state pension, I think anyone unfortunate enough to have to survive on the state pension alone would have a very restricted existence.

[PaulT]

If I remember correctly in the UK you need 35 years for a full pension. Now someone could have started work at 15 and retire at 65 = 50 years contributions and get the same amount as the person who ha only paid in for 35 years. A lot in life in unfair.

[idun]

lol no one starts at 15 anymore and even if they did start work this year having been born in 2000, they would not be able to retire on current figures until they are 68!