Jump to content

What a Nice Lady


Grecian
 Share

Recommended Posts

I can totally appreciate the uncertainty this must cause.

Realistically, however, it might be asking a bit much to expect anyone to provide a concrete answer within less than two weeks of the referendum result and given the current lack of clarity regarding our own domestic politics.

Like everything else, individuals are concerned for themselves and that's to be expected.

Politicians of whatever persuasion are criticised if they make promises they can't deliver, or indeed if they renege on promised actions. Now, it seems, we should also be criticising them if they don't make promises, even if the reason is that they aren't in a position to do so.

Although personally, I don't think that nationality is currently a consideration when it comes to thinking about "moving, investing or anything". I'd venture to suggest that you don't need to be a foreigner living in the UK to wonder what to do about such things at the moment. It applies to everyone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Their choice. And I think that many people will have to do that: make a choice based upon their prediction of what is likely to happen in the future. There will be no clarity on anything for at least the next three months, and if people are not prepared to wait then they will obviously just have to take a punt.

I admit to being a bit dumbfounded by the expectation that all the answers would be provided within days or hours of the referendum result.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it's true the period of uncertainty was predicted..hence the current recession. A lot depends on how long you want to wait around for things to pick up. I think the economic damage will take a minimum of 10 years to stabilize and maybe 20 for the UK to begin to see any economic advantages to being out of the EU. I'll be 80 by then, so I don't have time to wait around.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

True. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you/we/anyone should expect all the answers to enable us to make a decision based on our unique personal circumstances within less than a fortnight. Nor, indeed, does it mean that, once there is some clarity, you/we/anyone will be able to predict how things are going to pan out over a period of twenty years!

Looking back over the last twenty, there were certainly a significant number of events which caused all sorts of political and economic turmoil. I doubt any of us planned for those, did we?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oliver Letwin told a Commons Select Committee that only the Bank of England and the Treasury had considered

and planned for the possibility of a Brexit result. This does not give the impression of good management.

For once I see to be in agreement with the majority of Tory MPs and think that May is the best candidate for the job. Let's hope the Tory membership agree. We need a sensible and competent person to lead these vital negotiations
Link to comment
Share on other sites

YCCMB promises were made - £350M per week to the NHS and no immigration so there were plans. What the country needs to do is to say we suspend this government and now Messrs Bozo, Tonto and 'make mine a pint' need to put their plans in to place for Brexit asap so that the NHS gets the money and Johnny Foreigner is kept out.Would have been all over if they had started on June 24th.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul I'm surprised at you, no one said the 350mil would all go to the NHS, they did suggest that some of it would be better spent that way, and nobody, except a very small lunatic fringe; ever said that they would stop all immigration, the suggestion was to stop unlimited immigration, and surely in a very small overcrowded country that is not such a terrible thing. In my opinion if you are going to bring a skill or expertise then fine , but why should we accept economic migrants. Living in a foreign country is a two way venture and both sides must benefit. You can't get into lots of countries in the world unless you have something to offer or can support yourself, nothing wrong with that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know promises were made. I'm not one of the naive innocents who believed them.

Among the reasons, I felt that it was a little bit like the promises Nick Clegg made on behalf of the LibDems before they entered into the coalition: promises made on the basis that, as they didn't expect to win, they could promise to do absolutely anything, safe in the knowledge that they'd never actually have a mandate to do it. And lo, they were put into a position where they had to deliver on those promises and they failed. And thousands of young voters, who actually believed that they'd given the LibDems a clear mandate to abolish tuition fees learned the hard way never to trust a politician.

Farage has always promised whatever he fancies, knowing that he's unelectable and will never have the opportunity, let alone the authority to deliver on his flights of fancy. Gove and Boris made promises, but on whose authority? It's easy to tell people what they want to hear when regardless of the outcome, nobody has actually said that those making he promises will be given any sort of authority to deliver them.

We were voting in a referendum, not an election...and I was always curious as to who, exactly, was going to have the authority to carry out all these promises being made on behalf of "leave", which is not a political party, but a random coalition of people who supposedly agreed on one specific aspect of the UK's policy towards EU membership.

Now everyone is bleating that we should have had a well-thought-out, completely rounded plan ready for every aspect of our collective lives likely to be affected. It's logical that the Bank of England and the treasury should have worked through a number of contingency plans. After all, even a chimp with an abacus could have predicted that there would be a reaction from the financial markets.

As for the other gazillion things affected (and, surely, leave voters realised - indeed, voted on the basis - that the EU has had an invasive effect on most aspects of our lives) how in the name of anything could any government, political persuasion irrelevant, have a full-blown negotiating strategy up, running and ready to roll within a fortnight? Even if they'd been planning beforehand, they've got to go through negotiations, not reveal the new Utopia as a fait accompli, tied up with a ribbon. At best, they would now be making another set of wild promises, and I'm sure that would get up the noses of the general populace even further than this initial period of silence and uncertainty.

I've seen posts on Facebook and forums from people asking for specific assurances about the specific effects on niche issues in two years time. I suggest we'd probably do better forgetting about Theresa May and seeing if Mystic Meg wants the gig.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trouble is, people have become so used to being looked after and spoonfed "from cradle to grave" that they can't bear the uncertainty. I feel a bit the same, but knew it was untrodden ground.

Nobody can say how things will turn out, the UK has never been in this position before. Are we the first EU country to vote out?

The only other slightly comparable situation was with Greece, but they have the euro, we don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Patf"]The trouble is, people have become so used to being looked after and spoonfed "from cradle to grave" that they can't bear the uncertainty. [/quote]

 

I guess that I am a rare exception then. I have always thrived in situations of uncertainty.

 

That is why I look on with bemusement and amusement in equal measure at peoples current outpourings, at the oscillating sphincters, and with shame at some of the insults being launched at one another or towards the majority of the voters. It really brings out the worst in some, luckily this forum has been pretty much immune.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you Betty in so far as it was a referendum, a consultation not something that has been debated and passed by Parliament.

The problem is that there seems now to be pressure to act on it ( by triggering Article 50)  without seeing what the plans for the future will actually be.

I would argue that there should have been more clarity from the Brexit side, but given that they have won the consultation stage with vague promises it is essential that proper thought be given to it before it goes any further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

YCCMB,

it is fine and good to say that having a full policy sorted out in the first ten days is unrealistic, but Tessa's refusal to make any immigrant commitment leaves me feeling very uncomfortable for those immigrants living in the UK and also as a direct consequence for those of us living on the continent.

She could have said that she would see no problem for those already living in the UK at this time and as long as the EU reciprocated. This would have provided a degree of certainty and would have maintained a political and negotiating upper hand by putting the ball firmly in the EU court.

That she chose not to do so leaves an impression that her intention (in line with previous policies and statements) are that not all current immigrants will be allowed to stay.

The uncertainty will cause a number of those in the UK to seriously consider moving back to the Continent. It could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back:

Over the campaign immigrants have been vilified and labelled the root of all the UK's ills. That abuse it seems continues and while I would accept that the media presentation of some politicians and members of the public does not represent the views of the population as a whole, it will have caused some to consider how welcome they will be in a future UK.

Even being told you can say only begins to start to settle the discomfort of those who find themselves working in the UK while being citizens of an EU country. Other major questions arise around healthcare, access to employment benefits and pensions when these people decide to return home. Understandable questions such as these cannot be answered at this stage because they do not depend on the UK government but rather on the EU.

What I fear is an exodus of talent from the UK under these uncertainties. Those with the greatest skills (and therefore the most important to the UK) will find it easiest to leave and find work in Europe. Some will rejoice at the reduction in numbers and not see the loss of skills or tax revenues. If this is then followed by setting a residence bar that is set high, there will then be a further exodus of people refused the right to stay in the UK. I think it is reasonable to assume that such a bar would be roughly matched by the EU with a similar movement of peoples from the EU to the UK.

So what we could see is:

very little change in the numbers of people living in the UK, just a reduction in the number of non-British.

A loss to the UK of younger, working, tax paying people, who use the social services of the UK at a relatively low level.

These to be replaced by UK nationals ejected from the EU - largely older, many on pensions, contributing little to the UK economy but drawing heavily on the social services - especially the NHS.

We could see (and I stress could) a migration albeit in two directions that dwarfs the Syrian migration of 2015.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

chancer, I have not posted on here recently, but feel pretty much the same as you

do. I sort of sit here with a confused smile on my face in 'wonder' at

some of the posts.

I cannot say these things will not have an

adverse affect on our lives, I'm absolutely sure that they will, but

really, worrying about it........... I actually have real problems in my life, that are of great concern to me, so I will not worry about this.

Also,when push comes to shove,  I had no guarantees that staying in would not have an adverse affect on my life either.

What

so ever, ever happens, we always lose out. And in spite of that, we are

fine, we manage. What is the expression, we cut our cloth to suit our

pocket?

Over the years I have heard absolutely rotten comments about the UK on here.  I mean dire rotten comments. So here is one for you all........ there are 28 of us stood in a room, and someone simply slips out.  Would any of us notice???? make a fuss?

Because IF I had only ever read this board, I would think that the UK was worthless and of no value, and yet it seems that the world has been affected by all this. I am looking to the future, because I believe that there is one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Andy, I posted a link, way back, to the actual interview with Ms May, and her actual words, spoken by her.

What she said,and I'm transcribing it so if you didn't listen it's at least in black and white, was:

"I want to ensure that we're not just able to guarantee the position for those people (i.e.EU citizens living in the UK)f, but guarantee the position for British citizens who are over living in other member states"

She was then asked if that meant she' d like people to be able to stay where they are for ever,and replied that she didn't think that people necessarily wanted to stay for ever.

"What's important is that there will be a negotiation here as to how we deal with people who are here and have established a life here, and how we deal with Britons living abroad"

I've paraphrased as little as I'm able, but I have NOT changed anything important.

I am at a loss as to why the emphasis seems, from most people, to be on what she didn't say, rather than what she did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am at a loss as to why the emphasis seems, from most people, to be on what she didn't say, rather than what she did.

Betty, sadly there are people who will always see the bad side, I do believe we need a good negotiator (which means not telling the other side what you are going to do) and who has experience of the political push and shove  ... which she has in spades .... at this stage of the "process" to leave or whatever, I would very much be unhappy with someone who put all their cards on the table ... in negotiation, keeping those cards close to the table, but being open to compromise is what is needed, something Theresa  May seems able and competent to do.  And certainly I would not have expected a coherent plan so soon after the debâcle we have just seen played out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am at a loss as to why the emphasis seems, from most people, to be on what she didn't say, rather than what she did.

Quite possibly because we have now found that virtually everything that a politician from the Conservative party has either been exaggerated or been a downright lie. Promises withdrawn, web pages deleted so that the guilty can deny it ever happened.

"I want to ensure that we're not just able to guarantee the position for those people (i.e.EU citizens living in the UK)f, but guarantee the position for British citizens who are over living in other member states"

An answer based on what I suggested would have gone a long way to making people believe what she has said. As it stands it sounds equally like "I am going to use immigration on both sides of the Channel as a bargaining chip".

she didn't think that people necessarily wanted to stay for ever

Can be interpreted as I intend to make life difficult so they don't want to live here forever. Again a different form of words could have been used -" if they want, but I don't think that many want to live here forever" has a very different tone to that given - at least to those of us who are now paranoid of everything that any politician from the UK dares to utter.

If people do not believe them then they have collectively brought that on themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is, whether you or anyone chooses to believe what she said is a matter entirely for you. However, there's a fundamental difference between deciding whether you believe something and reading or hearing something completely different from what was said. After all, you can't accuse someone of lying if you aren't prepared to carefully listen to what they said in the first place!

The situation is exacerbated, as always, by the press, who put their own spin on something and before you know it, that's gospel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The press - especially those owned by Murdoch.

We listen to LBC, and yesterday James O'Brien, gave some examples of complete distortions of some of Corbyn's speeches in the papers. Which millions read and believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

YCCMB: <>

Andy:<>

From what I've seen and read it was the 'leave' group (with 2 of the leaders being Conservatives) that told such enormous tales - no wonder many people thought that £350 million would be spent on the NHS.

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7943774.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS89532410.jpg

Sorry, can't make the link live.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pats said"The press, especially those owned by Murdoch"

Completely agree, though the link I posted initially, which was from the Independent, spun what was said, despite their spin being published online above and below a video of May saying it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is not surprising that some people believed that if we left the EU there would be £350 million per week for the NHS since it was written on the side of the Leave Battle Bus.  This promise was also repeated on social media. It was only after the result was known that they explained that this was not a promise merely a possibility.

The press nowadays seems to report political propaganda rather than the facts

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So basically the  out voters are morons.........believing every last fairy tale they see and hear.......?

In or out, people know that politicians are not honorable, even if some are called just that. They are crafty and unscrupulous, their thick hides meaning that they do not hesitate to blather on and unashamedly say whatever they want. That does not mean that the vast majority believe what they say. Before every election they are always full of 5hxt promising the moon. And all most of us can hope is that they manage to fulfill at least a little bit of the things their manifestos promised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
  • Create New...