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What a Nice Lady


Grecian
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It would seem that all EU migrants living in the UK and all British migrants living within the EU have just become 'fair game' for the very nice Ms May. We are all to be bargaining chips in this complete mess called Brexit, no guarantees for any EU migrants already living within the UK, and no guarantees for any British migrants living within the EU. Well thanks a lot Ms May.

This really is taking politics to a new low, playing with peoples lives to gain backing from the real right of the tory party to ensure that she becomes the next prime minister, as well as appeasing the truly adorable Mr Murdoch. I really cannot get my head around this crazy and nasty world that we now find ourselves living in. I guess that we will now see another surge in racial abuse and violence in the UK, with the potential new prime minister seemingly condoning discrimination against all EU migrants. Truly scary indeed.

At least you could say that she in one politician that has actually spoken the truth, when she said that the tory party is the nasty party.

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Rather selective thinking Grecian, you don't think that Mr Junkers is being "nasty" then. What she has said makes perfect sense for the UK. If she said OK all EU citizens can stay no strings, and then Mr Junkers and Hollande have the upper hand straight away, and could well say right all Brits out of Europe unless you accept our terms. I suggest you think this over as your knee jerk reaction is typical "remainers" scare mongering. By the way Switzerland has just rebelled against unlimited immigration into their country so are they now Nasty's?
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I would suggest t you listen carefully to Mrs May's exact words on the subject, here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-refuses-to-rule-out-deportation-of-eu-nationals-living-in-uk-amid-fears-of-influx-of-a7117346.html

It's always good to get in a decent, scandalous headline-grabber, but let's just look at it from another angle. Why would she make ANY promises about ANYTHING at a point where every word spoken on the subject is either taken as gospel or thrown back in the face of whoever says it when it can't be delivered (and especially if it can't be delivered immediately)?

As she rightly points out, the whole issue will be part of negotiations yet to even begin. She can't wildly promise that all EU nationals living in the UK will be able to remain, because if she does, she loses a major negotiation before it's even taken place. And IMO that negotiation will probably be "We won't guarantee anything for EU nationals living in the UK UNTIL we have assurances about the UK nationals living abroad."

I can't find anywhere where she has suggested that people living in the UK WILL be sent home, so as she says, for the time being, nothing will change. This is fundamentally no different from all the various interest groups who've had EU grants wanting immediate assurances that the UK will stump up the same money and they won't lose out. Why make promises until you're sure you can keep them? We have just endured several months of politicians doing exactly that, and look where that's got us.

Free movement is going to be a key negotiating point in the whole discussion, as everyone is aware. Why would she, or anyone else, show her hand before either she is elected to take over, or before any negotiation gets underway? And for those who think it's a reason she shouldn't become leader, well, there's always Gove......

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All this arguing about who are going to be the leaders in  the various parties just goes to show (imo) that we need to have an other general election.

First stage each party to choose the best person as leader , to guide us through the complicated process of initiating and carrying through the exit (if it comes to that.)

After the election the next stage seems to be for the winning party to guide a Parliamentary debate and vote on the subject. As has been mentioned today, part of constitutional law.

Only then will we know where we are. Either go ahead, or try to remedy the damage already done.

Until then all this comparison of personalities is just a waste of time.

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Either go ahead, or try to remedy the damage already done

 

There is no going back, any more than there is for the married person who announces that he/she wants to leave for their lover, at a time to suit them and under their own conditions or a sales director who tenders his resignation in the same manner.

 

No going back, no matter how many regrets.

 

The only person so far that I have seen that seems to get that is Theresa May, she has my admiration for stepping up to the mark to implement a crock of ****e that she didnt support when all those that did have turned tail, she probably wont get elected for having spoken honestly though.

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I can't see the logic of bleating for a general election when three parliamentary parties (OK , I'm extending unprecedented generosity to UKIP here) are in a confused state about their own leadership.

It might seem like a good idea...after all, democracy worked well a fortnight ago, didn't it? But until some more dust settles, and there's some degree of clarity about things, I'd stick my hand up and confess that I would have no clue what, let alone who, I'd be voting for.

And, to be honest, an election right now would be so totally dominated by Brexit, and every politician's stance on it, that I'm not convinced the Great British Public would serve themselves,or be served well by taking to the ballot box again just yet.
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Negotiations have to be two sided. Do not say that EU Nationals in the UK can stay and hope that the other side reciprocate could be extremely dangerous.

When I look at a house or car that I wish to buy I always feedback to the agent / seller in a slightly negative way. Say 'this is exactly what I want in a wonderful condition' puts you on the back foot as it is know that you want it so the seller will hold out for a high price.

Negotiations are a game of strategy and within that strategy you do not give your hand away. The number of EU nationals in the UK are very small compared to UK nationals in EU countries so which side needs to be the shrewder negotiatior?
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Whoopee, the LibDems have rallied! Well, let's have a general election. I wonder what platform they'll all adopt. As it appears that all political,parties AND the nation are divided on the current state of affairs, I'm sure that heading into an election with such a lack of clarity will make it easy for us to decide what to do. And I'm sure we can all be trusted to vote based on the wider issues other than Brexit, can't we? Because it'll be six years before we can do it again.
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What we, sorry, shoumd say "you" as I am no longer part of "we".

 

What you need is a jolly good war to bring you all together and focus your minds but then you would also need a leader with a pair like Churchill.

 

Any nominations for who to declare war against and who to lead the campaign?

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Well it just must be me then, other people seem to think it fine that families could be broken up with spouses being deported if Ms May so demands. I fully understand how negotiations work, but to be using human beings who have legally moved to and lived in any EU country for a set period of time, I find totally despicable.

I see that Ms May bottled out of defending her position in the commons today, sending in a junior as per normal to face any criticism, with chants of 'where is Theresa?' It would seem that both Leadsom and Crabb are both guaranteeing EU migrants can stay in the UK, but May obviously thinks there are more votes to be had 'acting tough'. Indeed the Leave campaign stated that all existing EU migrants could stay in the UK in the event of a Brexit. I guess it was just another lie then.
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Grecian, should those awfully nice people in the other EU countries be saying to UK nationals in their country 'you can stay' or should the UK say 'you can stay' and then later the other EU countries say 'we want you out'.

Remember it was human beings who voted Leave on the basis of immigration.
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Grecian wrote :

"Well it just must be me then, other people seem to think it fine that families could be broken up with spouses being deported if Ms May so demands".

Well Grecian I was under the distinct impression that Ms May was standing for leadership of the Conservative party, not as absolute dictator. Still that's probably because I'm not feeling particularly paranoid at the moment
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You can probably get a reasonable idea of how Mrs May would deal with these issues as prime minister, by looking at her record as home secretary.

Non EU citizens now have to earn in excess of £35000 pa to continue to stay in the UK. There have been examples of Australians, running small businesses in the UM for several years but with turnovers of less than the required amount, not getting their residents permits renewed and having to sell up and return to Australia. In one case they employed a full time British person but this was not enough to save them Teachers are also affected by this. Theresa May has also been keen for the Uk to opt out of the ECHR so that people can be deported without the ability to appeal. Of course many of you may think these things are perfectly acceptable until France decides to do the same to non EU residents.
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LGBT: May voted in favour of same-sex marriage in 2013.

War: She has almost always voted for the use of UK

military forces overseas. She also voted in favour of the Iraq war, and

then in favour of an investigation into the Iraq war.

Nukes: She wants to replace Trident with a new nuclear weapons system.

European Union: May voted in favour of holding the EU referendum, and has voted both for and against more EU integration.

Welfare: She voted in favour of the bedroom tax,

against raising welfare in line with prices, against paying higher

benefits over longer periods to those with disabilities, and has almost

always voted for a reduction in welfare spending.

Taxes: May voted to raise the threshold at which

people start to pay income tax, to increase the rate of VAT, and in

favour of higher taxes on alcoholic drinks and plane tickets. She also

voted against introducing a tax on bankers’ bonuses, and has

consistently voted against increasing the tax rate for high-earners

(those earning over £150,000). She also voted against a mansion tax.

NHS: May has tended to vote against smoking bans,

and against allowing the NHS to restrict the provision of services to

private patients.

Education: May voted in favour of raising the

tuition fee cap to £9,000 a year. However, she initially voted against

introducing tuition fees.

Lords: May has generally voted in favour of a wholly elected House of Lords.

Immigration: Probably unsurprisingly, May has consistently supported tighter immigration rules, and a stricter asylum system.

Snoopers: May has, also unsurprisingly, also voted in favour of mass retention of information about communications.

Environment: May voted against measures to prevent climate change, and in favour of culling badgers.

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[quote user="lindal1000"]You can probably get a reasonable idea of how Mrs May would deal with these issues as prime minister, by looking at her record as home secretary. Non EU citizens now have to earn in excess of £35000 pa to continue to stay in the UK. There have been examples of Australians, running small businesses in the UM for several years but with turnovers of less than the required amount, not getting their residents permits renewed and having to sell up and return to Australia. In one case they employed a full time British person but this was not enough to save them Teachers are also affected by this. Theresa May has also been keen for the Uk to opt out of the ECHR so that people can be deported without the ability to appeal. Of course many of you may think these things are perfectly acceptable until France decides to do the same to non EU residents.[/quote]

 

Very well put!

 

What is the UM and also the EHCR, I have seen the latter frequently mentioned and not understood.

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All the usual suspects with alarmist what might happen scenarios. As a UK resident I would be quite happy to see Mrs May as Prime Minister and what is wrong with her looking after the UK's interests? It has been said many times , people lived in the European mainland for years long before the EU and will continue to do so. The UK has reciprocal health agreements with lots of non EU countries, so why should this be different for France. As for France getting heavy with a load of old Brits, why would they? There are thousands of young French working in the UK, I'm sure the risk of having that lot back to boost the unemployment figures isn't a good idea. Living abroad is a choice; and sometimes you have to accept that if what you want isn't necessarily good for millions of others back home, then tough, but no one forced you to move into a foreign country.
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I think this demonstrates just how clear a mandate the next Tory leader will have. And it shows just why it's probably better to make no promises...??

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/22/eu-migration-confused-poll-free-movement_n_6026550.html

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So you are betting that Mrs May or whoever it is will not impose the 35000 salary limit on EU immigrants then?

I can see why you think like you do Nick as you continue to live in the UK..but many of us have moved to 'a foreign country' and no longer think of that country as 'foreign'. Neither do we think of the country of our birth as home, and yet unless the system that is adopted gives long term residents the same rights as nationals, long term residents could suddenly find themselves as citizens with less rights than those born there. To give you and example, a good friend of mine has lived in the UK for 30 years; she has worked in the NHS and at the end of her career she managed a very large health authority. She is Portuguese and her husband is Danish. They never applied for naturalisation because they never needed to..but now they find their future is completely up in the air because no one can guarantee that their status as residents will be honoured. So they can't think about moving, investing or anything until there is clarity. How is that helping 'things back home'?
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