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Debra
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Since I asked the question and there has been no response to date from those who favoured Brexit my own views are that the UK should delay the formal application until they know what can be achieved and what would be acceptable to the majority of the British people. The success of negotiating a deal is to be clear in your own mind as to what you want and what you can concede.

It now seems clear that access to the free market will be linked to the free movement of workers so that may prove tricky. A Norwegian type deal would leave us with a similar situation to the present but with no influence on future rule changes and a possible loss of some or all of the current rebate. I do not think either the Remainers or Leavers would be too happy with that  solution. A clear stumbling block to the EU making major concessions is that while 45% of UK exports are to the rest of the  EU only 7% of their exports are to the UK. This would suggest that we are not in the strongest position in that area. Negotiations are going to be hard since any conclusion needs to be approved not only by the remaining 27 EU members and the UK parliament but also by the EU Commission, The Council of Ministers and the European parliament.

Now lets be hearing from those Leavers who have thought about the consequences of their vote

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[quote user="chessie"]look at the nations - including the USA - already lining up to do trading agreements with the UK.[/quote]

 

Well that's the first I heard. Reported twice now (after the referendum) is the US saying there will be not be any kind of deal with the UK until TTIP is signed. I mean do you jump out of a deal with 27 countries to do a deal with just one?

 

But then as somebody said "I'm having fun stiring things up...!!!!". Shame the "expert" who said that couldn't spell stirring properly.

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[quote user="Rabbie"]Since I asked the question and there has been no response to date from those who favoured Brexit my own views are that the UK should delay the formal application until they know what can be achieved and what would be acceptable to the majority of the British people. The success of negotiating a deal is to be clear in your own mind as to what you want and what you can concede.

It now seems clear that access to the free market will be linked to the free movement of workers so that may prove tricky. A Norwegian type deal would leave us with a similar situation to the present but with no influence on future rule changes and a possible loss of some or all of the current rebate. I do not think either the Remainers or Leavers would be too happy with that  solution. A clear stumbling block to the EU making major concessions is that while 45% of UK exports are to the rest of the  EU only 7% of their exports are to the UK. This would suggest that we are not in the strongest position in that area. Negotiations are going to be hard since any conclusion needs to be approved not only by the remaining 27 EU members and the UK parliament but also by the EU Commission, The Council of Ministers and the European parliament.

Now lets be hearing from those Leavers who have thought about the consequences of their vote
[/quote]

 

The thing is Rabbie it's getting boring now. Those that voted to stay knew all this anyway so it's pointless banging on about it. It is what it is and there is no going back EVER. Lets hope those that voted to leave will be equally as happy in five or ten years time but that will be their problem not mine. If it was not for the fact I have dual nationality (Irish) I would be ashamed to be British after this mess.

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Well, I feel more proud to British than I did before the vote. Not that I could vote.

The only doom and gloom I have read since the vote is on French expat forums by wannabe economists and they are doing my head in.

The whole of the EU will collapse then be rebuilt properly. The UK still is and will always be in the EU.

Get a grip toute le monde.
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@ Cat

US House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan has called for the

US to start negotiating a new free trade deal with Britain to ‘show

solidarity’ and ensure a ‘smooth relationship’ post-Brexit.

Mr Ryan, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate and one

of the party’ s most senior politicians, said the UK was America’s

‘indispensable ally’ and needed to be helped after it parted ways

with the EU.

Along with a long list of 11 other countries - and counting - OK ?

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Good propaganda Rabbie, what you failed to mention is that their 7% is a bigger quantity than our 45, but why let the truth get in the way of a so called statistic. I don't understand Cather Tours boast about how Irish dual nationality stops him being ashamed of being British, if you want to be ashamed go or it. Me I'm English first, British next and proud of both.
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Its good to see the remain supporters on this forum seem to have grasped

the idea that Britain is leaving the EU. ( boy that was good to write)  Perhaps

the reason many who supported a BRexit have not posted their views is because

there have been so many incorrect statements made on this forum by those

smarting over their defeat, it seems best just to let them get on with their

whinges, poor losers can be quite entertaining.

First they clung to the hope that there was to be a petition to overthrow

the result of the referendum, when it turns out 40, 000 of those that signed the

petition were from the Vatican city, and of course not eligible to vote was bad

enough, but when less than 800 people live there anyway, it becomes

laughable.

 

So, Rabbie, as you asked, lets put a few things straight,

 

As you know I am a great supporter of UKIP, but not a member, I would never

join any political party as I will not give my unquestioning support to any one

party. But I did contribute to the UKIP fund by way of a donation, to help them

fight the huge resources which  the Remain campaign had backing them finically,

people like Goldman-Sachs and others with deep pockets, so felt if I could help

in some small way I would. Please note, I gave to UKIP, not Vote Leave.

 

I would like Nigel Farage to be our prime minister, but as he has always

said, he is not a career politician, he is only in politics to get the UK out of

the EU. So mission accomplished, after 25 years of hard toil to get us here, it

only seems right that he should now get his life back.

I have read on this forum how he should be made to see the negotiations

though, as he has lead us to where we are now. Well, he cant, he is not in the

cabinet, he is not even an MP, so he cant do anything about the next stage, even

if he wanted to. He has carried out his ambition, and how many politicians can

say that??    Also remember, it was not Nigel's bus which had £350M  plastered

on the side.

 

Moving forward, there is no reason what so ever for the UK to accept free

movement of people to access the single market. America, Australia and many

other countries sell into the EU and they don't have to accept the free movement

of people, and neither will the UK.

Even if the UK had to accept WTR, then this would be better than the deal

we have at present, as we would not have to pay a ‘fee’ to be in the club, there

may be tariffs to pay, but as we buy more from the EU, then they sell us, we

would be getting more from them then they would take from us.

 

I will buy wine from other than France if I need to, I will holiday in

other than France if needs be,  many people will buy other than German or French

cars, ( why would anyone buy a French car anyway??) if the tariff is too high. 

This is why as Nigel says, we need to be ‘grown up’ about the

negotiations.

 

The UK Should NOT accept free movement of people after we leave. Personally

I think we should activate article 50 yesterday, and get this whole mess over

with. Living in the UK for people not born here is not a right, it is a

privilege, they must earn the right to be here, not just be allowed to come here

because it is in their best interests, and not the UK’s.

 

I think everything is panning out far better than I thought it would, this

far anyway.    Teresa May would not have been my first choice, but she would not

have been my last either, so I am fairly happy for now, lets see what the next

few weeks bring, as Nigel said in his victory speech on the Friday after the

Referendum , ‘even the weather has improved’, all we need now is for Mr T to win

in November, and the world might finally be getting back on track.

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[quote user="chessie"]

@ Cat

US House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan has called for the US to start negotiating a new free trade deal with Britain to ‘show solidarity’ and ensure a ‘smooth relationship’ post-Brexit.

Mr Ryan, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate and one of the party’ s most senior politicians, said the UK was America’s ‘indispensable ally’ and needed to be helped after it parted ways with the EU.

Along with a long list of 11 other countries - and counting - OK ?

[/quote]

Mr Ryan, like any politician can say what he likes but it does not make it true. We are after all talking about a man who is an ardent Trump supporter, member of the NRA and an passionate supporter of the 2nd Amendment who agreed with that odious little man Le Pierre who, if you cast your mind back, suggested teachers wore guns in school to protect school children among other quite stupid comments.

 

As to the claim that 11 countries (not hundreds) want to do a trade deal with us one of which is Germany (which it can't do because it is part of the EU) when you look deeper it is not about creating a trade deal but keeping the current "trade status" they have with the UK.

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[quote user="NickP"]I don't understand Cather Tours boast about how Irish dual nationality stops him being ashamed of being British, if you want to be ashamed go or it.[/quote]

 

Racism (and hate crime) is what makes me ashamed. Most newspapers have covered this over the last week with a 47% increase in the amount of racist abuse including violence. Just Google "Rise in UK racism" and are loads of reports across all the newspapers from both the left to right wing. I hate any form of "ism" and it seems that many in the UK have seen the excuse of the UK voting to leave as open season against anyone who is not British.

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C/T wrote,

Racism (and hate crime) is what makes me

ashamed. Most newspapers have covered this over the last week with a 47%

increase in the amount of racist abuse including violence. Just Google "Rise in

UK racism" and are loads of reports across all the newspapers from both the left

to right wing. I hate any form of "ism" and it seems that many in the UK have

seen the excuse of the UK voting to leave as open season against anyone who is

not British.

 

I wonder what your views on the Dallas shooting

of five white police officers, by an African American who’s main aim was to kill

white people??  Now that's a real race hate crime, not someone calling names, or

writing on the side of an English building.

If there was a ‘white lives matter’

group you would say its racist, but ‘black lives matter’ is OK I guess, its OK

to have a MOBO awards, but if there was a MOWO awards, then that

would be racist??

I would also like to point out its unfair as

there is a unit of the met set up to deal with Black gun crime in the London area (

operation Trident) Google it if you have never heard of it. Why is there none

for investigating white gun crime in London?? Answer, because there

is not enough of it.

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[quote user="ebaynut"]

C/T wrote,

Racism (and hate crime) is what makes me ashamed. Most newspapers have covered this over the last week with a 47% increase in the amount of racist abuse including violence. Just Google "Rise in UK racism" and are loads of reports across all the newspapers from both the left to right wing. I hate any form of "ism" and it seems that many in the UK have seen the excuse of the UK voting to leave as open season against anyone who is not British.

 

I wonder what your views on the Dallas shooting of five white police officers, by an African American who’s main aim was to kill white people??  Now that's a real race hate crime, not someone calling names, or writing on the side of an English building.

If there was a ‘white lives matter’ group you would say its racist, but ‘black lives matter’ is OK I guess, its OK to have a MOBO awards, but if there was a MOWO awards, then that would be racist??

I would also like to point out its unfair as there is a unit of the met set up to deal with Black gun crime in the London area ( operation Trident) Google it if you have never heard of it. Why is there none for investigating white gun crime in London?? Answer, because there is not enough of it.

[/quote]

There is a naivety amongst white people that only white people can be racist which is totally untrue so in a way I give you that point to a degree in that any type of racism is terrible.

 

The issue of racism in America is very complex and exasperated by their gun laws. However do you consider it correct that a young black man in his car with his wife and infant in the back should be shot to death by police officers yet he did not and never has committed any criminal offence or owned a gun? His "offence" was to be driving with a faulty rear side light, would this have happened if he was white? There are thousands of cases where "black Americans" have been shot to death (yet they had no gun), beaten to death by American police officers etc. Any form of shooting to death is wicked and wrong regardless of colour, sex, religion etc. so yes I think it despicable. Mind you using a robot to blow the man up is equally as bad but then you can't accuse the white police force of shooting him dead in this case.

 

With regards to Operation Trident. Its not about Black crime it is about gangs "Tackling gang violence is a key priority for the MPS. The Trident Gang Crime Command has responsibility for tackling gang violence and the prevention and investigation of all non fatal shootings in London.". As you can see no race is mentioned.

 

You may also find the following of interest http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/criminal-justice/ and notice that by far the biggest amount of crime is carried out by "white" people with black and Asian percentages being very low with the exception of inner city areas. Therefore proportionately one can assume (I know it's dangerous) that to claim there is less gun crime amongst "whites" would be a mistake.

 

The other issue is with people from other EU member states. They are the same race as us and as I said "hate crime" I don't think it right (as reported in the Daily Mail) that "British" people should (amongst other like beatings) beat a polish man and his son to a state of unconscious and leave them laying in the street just because they are Polish.

 

Music, well I love music but then you have unique events and awards for many different types of music one of which is black music "The MOBO Awards for "Music of Black Origin" were established in 1996 by Kanya King and Andy Ruffell. The MOBO Award show is held annually in the United Kingdom to recognise artists of any ethnicity or nationality performing black music.". Therefor a white person can win as has Justin Timberlake, Sam Smith to name a couple of the top of my head. Indeed some black artists have complained that it is "to white".

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[quote user="ebaynut"]

  by those smarting over their defeat, it seems best just to let them get on with their whinges, poor losers can be quite entertaining.

 

I would like Nigel Farage to be our prime minister, but as he has always said, he is not a career politician, he is only in politics to get the UK out of the EU. So mission accomplished, after 25 years of hard toil to get us here, it only seems right that he should now get his life back.

 

[/quote]

 

Without taking any side on the Brexit I agree with the first statement.

 

With the second, well regardless of whether I agree with someones politics I admire integrity and the courage of someones convictions, in that respect I have the utmost respect for someone who has stuck to their principals and their word, honesty is a rare commodity in politics these days.

 

I was not a Thatcher supporter but I never could understand all the anger against her, she simply did what she said she would do if she were elected and I'm sure that most people including those who voted for her never dreamed that she would, I had the utmost respect for her integrity and felt that some of the public shows of jubilation at her death were very disrespectfull.

 

And Theresa May I respect for upholding her responsability of implementing a democratic decision that she voted against. At least saying that she intends to implement the democracy, time will tell.

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I just wonder how the Leavers campaign would have got on with the ASA if they had been advertising a product?

Stop immigration - they could not give that assurance

Save £50M per day - they could not give that assurance.

As for trading with the rest of the world - well, they will know that the UK needs to find alternate markets so any negotiations will be from a position of weakness including low prices.

The petition about a 2nd referendum is to be discussed.
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So, Brexit has won. Just as the Front National might win in FRance, the Northern League in Italy, the Austrian came close or did he win the rematch, then there is the Dutch fascist party. And their plea is that "We want our country back". The question remains 'Which country do they want back?"

My guess which is borne out by the content of some of these posters is that they want a white England, where foreigners are only allowed in on short term contracts and will not receive benefits of any kind.

Well, when will the purges start - perhaps outside court houses where anyone who is foreign and who has committed a crime, however small, will be put straight into an armoured van and driven to the nearest exit point.

"But they are taking our jobs, they cry" - What a load of cobblers. The only English people without jobs have chosen to be unemployed (or can't work) and even if they were to work, "wouldn't get out of bed for that money"

The first victim thus far is scientific research where the British are now being rejected for European teams and funding (it is all done on teams bidding for funds). And without R and D we will have the standard of living of Albania in Enver Xoha (or whatever the spelling is).

You may not like what the experts say, but by and large they know a damn sight more than white van man in all his tattooed glory, riding into battle with his drunken friends to beat up a simple foreign person who is walking the sreets to try to find a room, which they have been denied by the landlords who find ways of making sure they don't get any, because they ain't English.

I have been deeply hurt by the rise of the populist pigs and their leaders, particularly Farage whose speech to the European Parliament, saying that they had never had jobs before was deeply shaming for the British people. He should be hounded out of the EU Pmt and out of what used to be my country.

I now understand how Hitler came to power!
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[quote user="woolybanana"]So, Brexit has won. Just as the Front National might win in FRance, the Northern League in Italy, the Austrian came close or did he win the rematch, then there is the Dutch fascist party. And their plea is that "We want our country back". The question remains 'Which country do they want back?" My guess which is borne out by the content of some of these posters is that they want a white England, where foreigners are only allowed in on short term contracts and will not receive benefits of any kind. Well, when will the purges start - perhaps outside court houses where anyone who is foreign and who has committed a crime, however small, will be put straight into an armoured van and driven to the nearest exit point. "But they are taking our jobs, they cry" - What a load of cobblers. The only English people without jobs have chosen to be unemployed (or can't work) and even if they were to work, "wouldn't get out of bed for that money" The first victim thus far is scientific research where the British are now being rejected for European teams and funding (it is all done on teams bidding for funds). And without R and D we will have the standard of living of Albania in Enver Xoha (or whatever the spelling is). You may not like what the experts say, but by and large they know a damn sight more than white van man in all his tattooed glory, riding into battle with his drunken friends to beat up a simple foreign person who is walking the sreets to try to find a room, which they have been denied by the landlords who find ways of making sure they don't get any, because they ain't English. I have been deeply hurt by the rise of the populist pigs and their leaders, particularly Farage whose speech to the European Parliament, saying that they had never had jobs before was deeply shaming for the British people. He should be hounded out of the EU Pmt and out of what used to be my country. I now understand how Hitler came to power![/quote]

 

Well my yellow (as in banana) friend your right. You might take some pleasure in knowing that the man sitting behind and to the right of Farage when he made that speech was, so the TV news said, a practicing surgeon as well as an MEP. Better still was Jean-Claude Juncker who simply said after Farage's "speech" ...... "Why are you still here?".

 

Still it's early days. Lets see what James May's mother can do. Free trade is off the table till after Article 50 is sorted and then if the UK does not want the Norwegian or Swiss deal (which involves free movement) then it could be ten years before a deal can be ratified based on Canada and the US trade deals. Currently apart from TTIP the EU is negotiating free trade deals with two groups of 17 countries which for both sides is far more interesting. They have also completed (awaiting signature) agreements with two other groups, West Africa and Eastern Africa totalling 25 countries. The UK however will not have a trade deal with these countries unless it goes direct which could also take a time.

 

Fortunately with an Irish passport I will not have to face any problems like reciplical healthcare and lack of state pension increases in France.

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Chessie write

Here's a thought - if the 'experts' were so clever -

How is it that we had the financial crash ?

How is it that Greece was allowed to join the euro ?

How is it that there is huge youth unemployment throughout europe ?

How is it that we have the immigration/refugee crisis ?

Sir Stuart Rose (M&S) admitting to a HoC committee that if the UK did a Brexit 'that wages would have to rise' - there's an admission that because of over-supply of labour - employers have kept down wages - that was clever wasn't it ?

Unquote

Chessie

I have been mainly offline now for a couple of days due to storms and personal matters and have only been able to catch up on snippets.

Lest you think your thought provoking post has been ignored, overlooked or cannot be answered:

How is it that we had the financial crash ?

Quite simply because bankers decided to ignore or to try and circumvent what the experts were saying. As early as 2001/2 some expert were saying that the property market was overheating. This was universally ignored (even by me). By 2005/6 the experts were unanimously saying there was a problem and the banks' response was to devise ever more complex issues whereby even they did not understand what was being sold and bought. Just like Musical chairs when the music stopped........

But don't blame the experts. Blame the investment bankers who thought they could deal their way out of a predicted and predictable mire

.How is it that Greece was allowed to join the euro ?

A number of experts said that they did not meet the criteria, but politicians decided it was better to let them in on a lie than to exclude them. If there had not been a financial crash in 2007/8 (see above) Greece might just have got away with it as well as their political backers. As it was when the music stopped a number of their banks did not have a seat.

Don't however blame the experts.

How is it that we have the immigration/refugee crisis ?

UK does not have a refugee crisis but Europe does. This is due to a war(s) in Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan. I really don't think you can blame experts for this. Politicians and their inability to negotiate settlements cause wars - not experts.

How is it that there is huge youth unemployment throughout europe ?

A direct consequence of the crash of 2007/8. The experts warned (see first point) and no one listened. After that it was down to politicians to drive a path - any path - to keep economies alive. In any downturn, youth tend to be the first victims - I personally remember the UK problems of 1972 when UK companies stopped hiring graduates. Same issue different decade.

Sir Stuart Rose (M&S) admitting to a HoC committee that if the UK did a Brexit 'that wages would have to rise' - there's an admission that because of over-supply of labour - employers have kept down wages - that was clever wasn't it ?

No not at all clever. In fact so unclever that Sir Stuart Rose has publicised the fact that this is a Boris Johnson (I shall refrain from using lie) misunderstanding.

He was asked many questions by the HoC committee. To the one where he was asked what would happen if the size of the working population would fall, he answered that the cost of employment (wages) would rise. Later he was asked what he thought Brexit would bring and he replied that there would be a period of instability. BJ put the first answer to the second question and in a Walter Mitty moment linked the answer to the first question to the second. This is even after we now understand that he does not intend that any current immigrant should go back and so the labour pool will not immediately fall.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

I have in the past been scathing of experts - ex= has been and spurt a drip under pressure - but in all of you examples above except the last which is complete rubbish, the problem has been groups that have not paid attention to experts.

Quote weasel Gove: I think people have had enough of experts. GHUA.

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This is an interesting read - by the just appointed Brexit secretary:

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/david-davis-trade-deals-tax-cuts-and-taking-time-before-triggering-article-50-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html
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Cathar Tours, who said that there will not be reciprocal health care and lack of pension increases? These benefits are enjoyed by Brits in lots of non EU countries and have been for years. By the way you say you're ashamed of British racists, well funnily enough so are the huge majority of other Brits, bit like the majority of Irish who are ashamed of Gerry Adams and his murdering mates in the IRA. Still carry on posting propaganda and you might convince yourself that you're correct eventually.
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