Jump to content

Great - now what???


Debra
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 282
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Believe it or not - yes I do feel we have 'lost' something, and in a way I am very sad about it...honestly.

The dream that was sold to us back in the 60's and 70's would have been fantastic;  if it had remained with the 6 or 7 stable countries with relatively similar standards of living and outlook, and wish for peace after WW2.

The trouble is that it didn't stay at that;  we've all been lied to;  the reaction of the eu elites to the democratic votes about the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish being told to 'go away and vote again' - the certainty that it will develop, as was always the plan, into one superstate, with its own army, foreign ambassador, etc etc - is deeply worrying.   Particularly when you realise that Turkey is being encouraged, that the North African countries are being encouraged - tell me where does 'europe' stop - where are the borders ?

It hurts to do this Brexit;  but I am far more concerned about the future direction of the eu - it seems out of control with power grabbing, everywhere....

If only it had stayed at 6 or 7;  maybe 'associate membership' for other countries that, in time, when the living standards would have been more equal, then possibly consideration to 'full membership'.

It's the dismissal of people's concerns, the concerns of nation states by the likes of Merkel, Juncker, Tusk that concern me;  who says that after them - there might not be even more arrogant, power-hungry - and dangerous - people ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="lindal1000"] I don't particular like the decisions being made in my name at the moment, but then as you say we are free to kick out this lot by 2020 and then vote for people to take us back into the EU if we wish. I am definitely European by nature not British. I would like to see the negotiations allowing people like me to retain our European citizenship even if the UK as a nation leaves. [/quote]

 

A light bulb has gone off in my head [I] and I think I can finally see where you are coming from, as you know I'm a bit slow.

 

I consider you and I to be in similar situations, reading the above my initial thoughts were no décisions are being made on my behalf, I have left the UK even if I do still have assets and interests there, then I thought that I am definitely not one of the "we" that you are speaking of, then (I think) I finally got it [I]

 

Today, you and I are European, British born but it could have been any EU country, we are in France as Europeans and have pretty much the same rights as in the UK or whatever EU country we choose to live in.

 

Some day soon we will not have that choice and moreover we could be complete foreigners  like an American, Australian or Indonesian with possibly no more rights than they have, at least, that is what the fear/concern is. Time will tell whether or not it is justified, I hope not but in the meantime gaining French citizenship seems like a very smart idea with no apparent downside whatever way things go.

 

I had always intended to get French citizenship, it was just a strong gut feeling that one day something may happen and having both nationalities would give me options, I like to always have room to manouver, I would never have dreamed that it might be because GB would no longer be part of the EU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chessie

After reading quite a few “confusing” posts, yours is like a breath of fresh air – and not just because I agree with so much, but because it is grounded in facts. Thank you.

The record of the EU is shameful, the lies, the rejected referendums, how can these all be ignored ? And why ? Don’t people care about such immorality any more ? How can Barroso go and work for Goldman Sachs ? That’s just rubbing people’s noses in the whatsit. Even Francois Hollande can see it.

Maybe I have mentioned it before, my own motivation for the UK to escape from the all-powerful EU, EC and all the other kindred pig troughs/gravy trains is for the UK to regain its natural independence, instead of surrendering its laws, its regulations and all the rest to the hegemony in Brussels and Luxembourg. Those imperious people consist of a self-elected political elite, with no commitment to democracy, with absolutely no need to answer to anyone and they are (much more than) a blight on the political landscape. Is this attitude not natural for a people(UK) united for so long, with many differences to be sure, but so many more fine qualities uniting them all ? And a remarkable record to boot ?

The ambitions of those directing the EU are hidden, maybe they have more reckless ideas (even though “Our Cathy” has gone – I hope) like the Ukraine becoming a “European state”, which was insanity and cost so many lives.

There will be short term pain, just wait until the size of the Chinese problem is realised, 12% evaluation in 6 months, in spite of promises not to devalue. But there will be long-term gain, for the populace, I’m sure of it, transcending (important) personal concerns of house prices, currency fluctuations, payment of pensions and all the rest. For a large part, sheer inertia and workload will mean little will change directly, there is not the time, nor are the staff available, neither is the will to change there, necessarily.

The big question is the true commitment of Mrs May to her task. Will she, can she, does she truly want to complete the Brexit agenda? And what exactly is the agenda ? She doesn’t know because she was Against Brexit, as everyone knows. Does anyoe actually know ? Please tell. That is the massive question or doubt.

Having just seen the dreadful news from Nice, I want to stop right there andcompose myself. May the souls of those whose lives were taken from them so suddenly, rest in peace.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well ermie, as I posted previously these are the views of the person she has put in charge of Brexit:

http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/david-davis-trade-deals-tax-cuts-and-taking-time-before-triggering-article-50-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html

I have a few tickets for todays meeting between May and Sturgeon anyone interested - think there will be lots of hair pulling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chancer: Sorry I can't quote as it comes out unreadable.

Yes..that was what I was getting at. Today as British and EU citizens we have the same rights as a French person living in France. Once/if the deal is done then even if there are special deals done for us, or even if the UK remains part of the EEA, we will loose our right to European citizenship. That for me is fundamentally important on a number of levels. Bizarrely not all people will be equally affected. For example, my brother's wife has dual nationality (British/Italian, she has never lived in Italy but her mother was Italian and Italian passports are quite easy to get) and so he can, through her obtain an Italian passport and retain his right to EU citizenship. The same is true for anyone who is or is married to someone born in Ireland. There will effectively be two classes of British Citizenship: those who can by some means acquire another passport and thus keep their rights to European citizenship, and those who, through an accident of birth cannot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lindal1000

there is always the option for you of taking French nationality - and still maintain your UK nationality. It is something I am now seriously considering but I have a long way to go before I meet all of the requirements.

Even so there will still be two (or maybe more) classes of British. I have friends working in Germany, who have been there for years. Some have children born there. They also could take German nationality, but unlike us, that would require them to relinquish their UK nationality.

Those who accuse us of being bad losers who cannot accept the situation, simply do not understand the uncertainties and the potential complexities that Brexit will bring for a lot of UK nationals living outside the UK.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rules for naturalisation in German are quite complex. The right to hold dual nationality is given to a number of specific groups and your daughter complies with at least 2 of these.

One of the groups that can hold dual nationality are persons holding a passport issued by another EU state. When the UK leaves the EU that right disappears for those holding a UK passport. If you do not fall into another group as well the right to dual nationality disappears. That at least is what my friends are being advised.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ernie"]Those imperious people consist of a self-elected political elite, with no commitment to democracy, with absolutely no need to answer to anyone and they are (much more than) a blight on the political landscape.[/quote]

 

But the so are the Tories and Labour in the UK. We now have a new PM that nobody in the UK elected. People who would consider voting Labour at the next election if Corbyn was leader and have just joined the Labour party so they can vote for him to be leader have been told they will not be able to vote. Not a lot of democracy to be seen in either camp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But in the UK we do not vote for a leader, we vote for a party and a mandate ( and the EU vote was part of that mandate ) not a leader.

As for the Labour Party I'm puzzled as to why it is that the party are prepared to argue the toss regarding whether JC can automatically be on the ballot paper but they are allowed to play ducks and drakes with the voting rights of members.

Plus CT, you are assuming that people joined to vote for JC where the opposite maybe true....and the suspicion is that many people with not a Labour bone in their bodies previously joined to put JC in office just because he is such a liability......that is really an abuse of democracy and Labour needed to address it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why should the future of the UK depend on the personal situations of a very few people.    The eu is heading in a very non-democratic direction, and there are huge problems heading its way.

The Greeks have suffered greatly because of the euro;  50% of Greek doctors and surgeons have left Greece to go and work in Germany - that's a loss to the Greek citizens isn't it ?   The Polish government is desperate for the return of many of their citizens to help build up the country for future generations - shouldn't they do so ?

Those who have chosen to live and make their homes on a long-term basis in other european countries should maybe have become 'european' citizens rather than retain their home nationality.

We are talking only small numbers here.   There are 65 million UK citizens - and a large majority voted to leave the eu - for very many different reasons.

I share the concerns about Ms May;  although supposedly, some of her friends and colleagues are now saying that in reality she is eurosceptic I would not totally trust her (mind you I don't trust any of 'em).

I am pleased about David Davis - a man who should have been PM but was rejected because people were taken in by the smooth PR guy;  but Mr Davies has the right outlook - don't trust the eu elites and hope he looks out for the traps they will lay for the UK.

The news, comments, and press briefings from the US sound hopeful;  Mr O will be gone soon, there will be fresh people, fresh ideas in the White House, and that's reason for hope, because Mr O wasn't too keen on the 'special relationship' because of his personal background and history.

What is so 'wonderful' about being an eu citizen rather than a citizen of a country, any european country, that has its own history and culture ?   Why be so ashamed of your own country that you wish to deny it, and your previous generations and blood ties ?   I've worked and lived in Cornwall;  one of the most striking things about the Cornish people I worked with was a common thread of 'a Cornish person will, if at all possible, return home to Cornwall later in their life...regardless of where they have lived and worked previously, they all want to 'return home'.   Doesn't the same call of ties apply to one's own homeland ?

Please don't shout at me about this comment - but watching last nights tragic news I listened to M Hollande - he stood there and talked about 'strengthening borders'... - huh ?  in Schengen...?

The eu is a failed idea;  it is dated;  it was dreamed up in the 1920's and 30's, it is not fit for the 21st century with 27 countries;  the euro is a disaster and the big money men are looking ahead and talking about the real possibility that it will collapse - that it cannot function as it is.

Which brings me back to my main thoughts about the eu;  it was a wonderful idea, in the 1960s and 70s - (when it was limited to just 6 or 7 countries);  it would not be facing the problems now if it had remained at the 6 or 7 countries.    It does not work, it will not work in the future - unless there is far more concentration of power over every state by the Brussels lot - sovereign nation states handing over their democratic powers to unelected, unknown people.    It is not just UK citizens who find that extremely alarming.

There is now a different future for the UK - we have a proud history - and with the right people in charge it can be extremely successful.   We do not need the 'good will' of the eu lot, though it would be nice to suppose that they will behave in a civilised manner.   After all if the european countries start to penalise UK citizens living in a european country they need to remember that there are far more of their citizens living in the UK than UK citizens living in their country.  It's called 'repricitopy' (hope that's the right spelling !1) isn't it ?

Anyway, the sun's shining, it's time for a bit of quiet contemplation and family thoughts today, after last night's tragedy;  unbelievable - on the grounds of what...... what perversion of humanity can possibly carry out such acts - apparently a lot of young children had their lives cut short.....poor people, poor France.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

C/T wrote,

 

 ebaynut wrote:

.... if you had perhaps read the next

paragraph in my post you would see I had gone on to explain why he could not

have even had a say in the negotiations to leave the EU, yet alone ever be

PM..

 

Actually he will technically because he will

still be an MEP and MEP's will get to vote on any "deal" to do with Brexit. His

words by the way after somebody asked why he was still there.

 

Err, No, the terms of the exit deal will be

negotiated by the members of the cabinet and MP’s. His words were ‘ he cannot be

a part of the negotiations, but as an MEP will be watching like a hawk to make

sure there is no sell out’.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rabbie wrote,

Despite promising myself I would not rise to

the bait I cannot prevent myself from replying.

One of the most

irritating things in the referendum campaign was the Leave side trying to claim

they had a monopoly of patriotism and claiming that to stay in was an insult to

our dead servicemen. There was a very moving letter in the Telegraph from a

Battle of Britain veteran who said that he was voting to remain because of the

contribution he felt the EU had made to European peace so there are two sides to

every argument. Many of us who voted to remain did so because we felt it was in

the best interests of the UK as a whole. Just because we have different views on

what is best does not mean that either of us is unpatriotic.

I have had

several requests about the excessive use of capital letters in posts. This is

seen as the equivalent of shouting and makes things harder to read for some

people. Bearing this in mind Could you please consider changing your signature

to Normal case.

No Rabbie, you have misread what I have stated. I

am not saying that all people that voted remain hate the UK and are not as

patriotic as a leaver, what I am saying is those ( and in this circumstance, I

mean posters on this forum) who post how they hate the UK and what a small

backward country it is, with white van man etc are ALL people who have voted to

remain.

 

I am in no way questioning your patriotism as you voted to leave, and

believe you have a right to be wrong.

 

With regard your request to change my signature to normal case, I will

consider this, but please be careful what you ask for here, the next one may

upset you more. I am staggered that you have had ‘several requests’ about it,

clearly people have nothing better to do with their time. [8-)]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

C/T wrote,

 

I don't think people over 45 should have been

allowed to vote. Leaving the EU will hardly effect them at all except their

house may lose a bit of it's value. The people it will effect is us under 30's.

Yet again we are made to pay for the baby boomers. Many of my old school and

work friends back in the UK are seriously considering their options and nearly

half are looking to emigrate because of the UK leaving the EU. If, and nobody

knows at the moment, there are others like my friends who are considering

leaving it will strip the UK of it's young and brightest leaving an old decaying

society behind that will be going nowher

 

 

Well if those of us over 45 should not be

allowed to vote, then I guess we should not be allowed to pay taxes, as it seems

unfair if we cant decide who spends them, that we should be made to contibute. 

It would also follow that as we cant vote to decide who can make ours laws which

we live by, then perhaps we should not have to obey any laws?

 

May I wish your friends the best of luck in

their new country of choice, I somehow doubt if they are friends of yours

‘brightest’ would be a good word to describe them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gosh you don't give up do you.

 

[quote user="chessie"]
The Greeks have suffered greatly because of the euro;  50% of Greek doctors and surgeons have left Greece to go and work in Germany - that's a loss to the Greek citizens isn't it ?   The Polish government is desperate for the return of many of their citizens to help build up the country for future generations - shouldn't they do so ?
[/quote]

 

No they haven't. If you caste your mind back to when these troubles started and there was a rumour that Greece may return to its old currency people were reported on TV and in the press for taking Euros out of the banks to keep at home because their old currency would be worth nothing.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greeks-line-up-to-withdraw-cash-after-referendum-announcement-1435410126

 

Hence the new government put a limit of 60 Euros day on withdrawals.

 

The biggest mistake by the EU was allowing a corrupt Greek government to join. Seeing that they joined in 1981 and that all EU member states had to vote yes to let them join it could be argued that Margret Thatcher (who was the PM then) is equally to blame because she obviously voted yes. It is quite right for the EU to put sanctions on Greece. All that tax payers money, your money (I was still at school), was given for infrastructure projects like schools, hospitals, new roads etc. found its way into the Greek politicians and their mates pockets. I read somewhere that to build road in Greece cost four times the amount than in any other country because back handers were give out like confetti. The Greek government used the money to bribe their own people to vote for them to keep them in power. The bribe was in the form of massive state pensions, very low retirement age, large holiday entitlement and no effort to get them to pay tax.

 

[quote user="chessie"]We are talking only small numbers here.   There are 65 million UK citizens - and a large majority voted to leave the eu - for very many different reasons.
[/quote]

 

Wow, really, even children and babies got a vote did they? Actually just over 30M people voted which is less than half the population. Won't bore you with the result.

 

[quote user="chessie"]
The eu is a failed idea;  it is dated;  it was dreamed up in the 1920's and 30's, it is not fit for the 21st century with 27 countries;  the euro is a disaster and the big money men are looking ahead and talking about the real possibility that it will collapse - that it cannot function as it is.[/quote]

 

Actually 1943/44 by the same man who came up with the idea for the ECHR who ironically some have used (not here I hasten to add) against the EU by saying that he "would be turning in his grave", well he is now that's for sure.

 

By the way you never answered the 1,000 year question about invasion so as you clearly don't know your history I will tell your. The most obvious was 1066 which is 950 years ago although I suspect you will say 50 years is being pedantic as people like yourself often do when caught out. Quite a few Crown Dependencies have been invaded the most close being the Channel Islands but we can't mention them as part of the UK can we.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chessie just a couple of comments..too tired to say more as have been cleaning gites all day.

"Those who have chosen to live and make their homes on a long-term basis in other european countries should maybe have become 'european' citizens rather than retain their home nationality.

We are talking only small numbers here. There are 65 million UK citizens - and a large majority voted to leave the eu - for very many different reasons."

I very much hope we do get the chance to become "European citizens'. or rather remain European citizens..which is what we currently are.

It wasn't a 'large majority ' of 65 million citizens that voted to remain but 52% of the 70% of eligible voters. There are almost as many people unhappy with the result as there are happy. Surely you can see that that is a problem, and would have also been a problem had the result gone the other way as well.

"Please don't shout at me about this comment - but watching last nights tragic news I listened to M Hollande - he stood there and talked about 'strengthening borders'... - huh ? in Schengen...?"

I'm not going to shout but last time I saw the news they were saying that the attacker was a local man of French/Tunisian origin, so schengen would have made no difference.

I disagree with you about the idea of the EU being out-dated .. I think an island isolated and on it's own is more of a problem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]

[quote user="ernie"]Those imperious people consist of a self-elected political elite, with no commitment to democracy, with absolutely no need to answer to anyone and they are (much more than) a blight on the political landscape.[/quote]

 

But the so are the Tories and Labour in the UK. We now have a new PM that nobody in the UK elected. People who would consider voting Labour at the next election if Corbyn was leader and have just joined the Labour party so they can vote for him to be leader have been told they will not be able to vote. Not a lot of democracy to be seen in either camp.

[/quote]

Sigh - again, the point has been missed completely : “Tories and Labour in the UK” do NOT legislate nor control 27 other countries affairs, so the point of this post eludes me. And how Corbyn crept in has me beat.

In any case I shall not participate further, I do not appreciate the way things are going on this thread
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ernie wrote

: “Tories and Labour in the UK” do NOT legislate nor control 27 other countries affairs

No they only control 4 - two of which - Scotland and Northern Ireland - voted to remain.

The situation is anything but simple and for every anomaly you can point to in the EU there is a similar one in the UK and vice versa.

This should not be a points scoring competition. It is far too serious for that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note from Moderator:

Multiple posts have been deleted from this thread and further posts may be deleted throughout the evening.

Due to the gravity of some of the accusations made some temporary suspensions of membership have been put in place until the Moderators receive guidance from Archant.

Please keep posts on topic

Your co-operation is appreciated

Russethouse

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, back on topic it is, then.

The Telegraph is carrying a report that Theresa May has said that she will not activate clause 50 unless the Scots agree or are satisfied (though the latter amy be an impossibility). Thus far, this means never as far as the Scotch are concerned. So, Brexit can blame them for any delat or better!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It makes me laugh, Scotland and the Jimmy Krankie look a like plus Salmond want special treatment for Scotland , London voted to stay, and that region has more remain voters than Scotland, yet they accept the decision. Best let Scotland do what it wants; because last time they voted to remain in the UK, could Jimmy and her mate stand a third referendum lose?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...