Jump to content

Great - now what???


Debra
 Share

Recommended Posts

[quote user="NickP"]Cathar Tours, who said that there will not be reciprocal health care and lack of pension increases? These benefits are enjoyed by Brits in lots of non EU countries and have been for years. By the way you say you're ashamed of British racists, well funnily enough so are the huge majority of other Brits, bit like the majority of Irish who are ashamed of Gerry Adams and his murdering mates in the IRA. Still carry on posting propaganda and you might convince yourself that you're correct eventually.[/quote]

 

Who says there will be a reciprocal health care and pension increases when the UK leaves, this will be up to the EU and not the UK as it is part of Article 50 if you check and they have the last word and not the UK. That said why do we need reciprocal agreements with state pension, what we pay our pensioners wherever they are providing they have contributed the required amount is surely up to the UK government?

 

A majority can be 52% as we know quite well from recent events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 282
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Has May lost the plot by giving Boris a job as Foreign Minister? I mean this is the man who is reported to have written a poem about the president of Turkey having sex with a goat! I did think the reaction by Mark Toner was interesting "When state department spokesman Mark Toner heard the news, he struggled to keep a straight face – a broad smile breaking out more than once – before saying the US “looked forward” to working with Johnson." the video is even better.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/maybe-the-brits-are-just-having-us-on-the-world-reacts-to-boris-johnson-as-foreign-minister

 

Bodes well when it comes to a trade deal with the US. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As is this reaction

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jul/14/theyve-made-him-foreign-secretary-boris-johnsons-elevation-stuns-angela-eagle-video?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=181647&subid=7620567&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boris

Would have thought that mummy May gave Bozo a good talking to about being a good boy. Think he likes to play the buffoon when it suits him but far from unintelligent - there is no such thing as is bad publicity. Perhaps the Duke of Edinburgh could give him some advice :)

Reciprocal

As it says - same action between two parties so it is not just up to the EU about pensions and health but up to the EU AND UK.

My understanding that this does not apply in Australia because the Australian government decided not to reciprocate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pensions - What I was trying to get at is why does it have to be reciprocal? We are talking about somebody giving their citizens who are living in another country an extra £5 or whatever a week. As long as they declare it on their tax form in the country they live there should not be a problem as far as I can see. If on the other hand we paid EU citizens a UK state pension in the UK and say France paid UK citizens a French state pension I could see a point. I'm just trying to get to why it has to be reciprocal? It seems more like an excuse for the UK government to save money at pensioner expense to me.

 

Anyway seeing as it is the way it is Article 50 clearly states that it is a one sided "deal". The EU simply says No and that's it so there is no real negotiating if the EU decides to be pedantic. There are various sources on the web to see Article 50 if you want to have a look.

 

Another thing that interests me a bit is the UK relationship with the ECHR. Currently the EU is in negotiations with the ECHR to make the EU a member as a block rather than the current system of individual countries. As I understand it this is to ensure that countries both within and considering joining the EU must agree to the fundamental protection of rights of their peoples. I hope that because all treaties with the cease once article 50 is completed that this deal is not done because May has said she does not like the ECHR and was looking to leave that as well. If this agreement is done before we leave we could end up not being a member which I think may well please May. Regardless of the bad press the ECHR has had because of a minority of its rulings there is something rather comforting in knowing there is somewhere to go if your country abuses your human rights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, but what rights do you want the ECHR to have? Should Rosemary West who murdered, having abused umpteen girls have the ability to decide how the country is run because the ECHR say that she should have a vote?

There have been numerous examples of strange decisions made by the ECHR that prevent a sovereign country from governing itself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for pensions Fred is now a resident of France receiving a UK state pension that increases annually and also has healthcare paid for by the UK. Pierre is now a resident of the UK receives a French state pension but does not receive increases meaning that when his income falls below a certain level he will receive UK state benefits. Also France does not pay for his healthcare so when he falls ill the UK NHS picks up the bill.

Is this fair?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="PaulT"]Ah, but what rights do you want the ECHR to have? Should Rosemary West who murdered, having abused umpteen girls have the ability to decide how the country is run because the ECHR say that she should have a vote? There have been numerous examples of strange decisions made by the ECHR that prevent a sovereign country from governing itself.[/quote]

 

She doesn't and she hasn't. At the time there was a big thing about this in the newspapers and on TV preceding the decision and then it all went quiet because the ECHR ruled that certain categories of prisoner could not have the right to vote. The categories, as far as I can tell, are what Cameron put in place (by a vote of 234 to 22) are anyone serving four years or more.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/06/uk-ban-on-prisoner-voting-is-lawful-eus-highest-court-rules

 

Sorry it's the Guardian it was the first thing that came up when I Googled but there are plenty more sources if you look.

 

I forgot to say that I agree that in some cases their rulings have been rather strange but like all things in life you hear about the bad things and seldom about the good of which there are many. The whole point of the ECHR is that it can override sovereign states. An example is the Gurkhas. They want equal pension rights with British soldiers and quite honestly why not. They have helped the UK in many wars and have shown extreme bravery. Indeed they have won more (26) VC's than any other regiment since their inception fighting to protect the UK. The UK government still refuses to pay them the same pension so they have taken their case to the ECHR and hopefully they will get a positive result this year or next.

 

A full list of their judgements concerning UK citizens can be found here and you can see quite a few have been refused.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/06/uk-ban-on-prisoner-voting-is-lawful-eus-highest-court-rules

 

There was no "law" that said we have to accept ECHR rulings into UK law. It was Tony Blair (we all remember that man) who passed legislation to do this and not the ECHR forcing us to do it. In other words we were not told to do this but decided to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How strange that those who appear to hate the UK and its people the most

are all remainians and voted for us in the UK to suffer further by staying in

the EU, well hooray, its not happening, we are leaving, thank you Nigel, we

really would never have achieved this without your wonderful

contributions.

 

Great selection from Mrs May, don't you all think, such a promising future

awaits us, I expect you will all be looking forward, as I am to this

 

Great new signature Chancer, spot on as far as I am concerned, I do prefer

mine though, but I guess others may not.  [;-)]

 

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lindal wrote,

 

EBay nut..I know it's just a technicality, but

before Nigel Forage can be prime minister he has to first become a member of

parliament.

 

Thank you for your enlightening post, you may

notice that I did state, that is what I would like to see, however Nigel does

not  want the job, ( and frankly I cant think why anyone would) and if you had

perhaps read the next paragraph in my post you would see I had gone on to

explain why he could not have even had a say in the negotiations to leave the

EU, yet alone ever be PM..

 

 

I also noticed that you stated earlier in one

of your posts that it could be another twenty years before the UK would see any

benefit from leaving the EU, and you would be eighty by then, so selfish, what

about the next generations, what about our kids, do you not want a better world

for them moving forward?? However I guess we have a different view of what is

better, luckily, the majority share my view and won the

referendum. The EU will soon be fast disappearing in the rear view

mirror.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll be taking down the signature soon.

 

Having one really isnt me and I said that I would never have one, no problems with those of you that do, whatever floats your boat, its just "not my thang baby"!

 

I was just really surprised and perplexed at the reactions of many the day after the referendum and ever since, although most have returned to their usual selves, the spite and rhetoric aimed at the 52% majority really did surprise me, then when i watched the program Angry Britain and heard those words it all made sense so I wrote it down as best as I could recall.

 

I think that its important to try and understand others especailly when they are behaving out of character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PaulT,

I see that you live in Lincolnshire, clearly I don't know where, but guess

you are nearer to Boston than any other poster on this forum. Why do you think

that is was only 75% of the voters in this town, which has been over run with

people from outside the UK who voted to leave? Are there really 25% of voters there who are

exploiting the 'newcomers' in some way that wanted them to stay so much they voted to

remain?

I have never been to the town, so don't know it, but it has been

featured many times in TV programs lately.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="PaulT"]As for pensions Fred is now a resident of France receiving a UK state pension that increases annually and also has healthcare paid for by the UK. Pierre is now a resident of the UK receives a French state pension but does not receive increases meaning that when his income falls below a certain level he will receive UK state benefits. Also France does not pay for his healthcare so when he falls ill the UK NHS picks up the bill. Is this fair?[/quote]

 

Perhaps I have inadvertently complicated things by mentioning health care and pensions together because they are two separate things.

 

Health care is covered by the EU S1 form for all member states just the EHIC card. In the case of a French (or any other EU national) living in the UK an S1 entitles them to the same health care as a UK national. The difference between the UK and say France is that it free at the point of use where as in France, with the exception of certain long duration illnesses like in the UK) it covers 70% like any French national. Perhaps the easiest way to think of it is that France pays the French Fred's NI contribution. So lets take this out of the pension question.

 

Pensions come into another area completely so I still don't understand what it has to do with any other country how much the UK government pays anyone who is entitled to one wherever they live.

 

I am not looking for an argument, I simply don't understand and wondered if anyone can give a simple reason why it is this way.

 

Interestingly I noted from the DWP booklet that if your a UK citizen living in Australia drawing a UK state pension and return to the UK for say three months that during that time you get the full amount which then reverts back to the old amount when you leave. Seems rather bizarre that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chancer wrote,

I'll be taking down the signature soon.

 

Having one really isnt me and I said that I would never have one, no

problems with those of you that do, whatever floats your boat, its just

"not my thang baby"!

 Sure, I know what you mean. I never used one until I noticed Bettys, in support of IS, so thought, ' if its good enough for Betty, then why not'  [I]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ebaynut"]

.... if you had perhaps read the next paragraph in my post you would see I had gone on to explain why he could not have even had a say in the negotiations to leave the EU, yet alone ever be PM..

[/quote]

 

Actually he will technically because he will still be an MEP and MEP's will get to vote on any "deal" to do with Brexit. His words by the way after somebody asked why he was still there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="ebaynut"]
How strange that those who appear to hate the UK and its people the most

are all remainians and voted for us in the UK to suffer further by staying in

the EU, well hooray, its not happening, we are leaving, thank you Nigel, we

really would never have achieved this without your wonderful

contributions.

 

Great selection from Mrs May, don't you all think, such a promising future

awaits us, I expect you will all be looking forward, as I am to this

 

Great new signature Chancer, spot on as far as I am concerned, I do prefer

mine though, but I guess others may not.  [;-)]

 

 

 
[/quote]Despite promising myself I would not rise to the bait I cannot prevent myself from replying.

One of the most irritating things in the referendum campaign was the Leave side trying to claim they had a monopoly of patriotism and claiming that to stay in was an insult to our dead servicemen. There was a very moving letter in the Telegraph from a Battle of Britain veteran who said that he was voting to remain because of the contribution he felt the EU had made to European peace so there are two sides to every argument. Many of us who voted to remain did so because we felt it was in the best interests of the UK as a whole. Just because we have different views on what is best does not mean that either of us is unpatriotic.

I have had several requests about the excessive use of capital letters in posts. This is seen as the equivalent of shouting and makes things harder to read for some people. Bearing this in mind Could you please consider changing your signature to Normal case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also noticed that you stated earlier in one of your posts that it could be another twenty years before the UK would see any benefit from leaving the EU, and you would be eighty by then, so selfish, what about the next generations, what about our kids, do you not want a better world for them moving forward?? However I guess we have a different view of what is better, luckily, the majority share my view and won the referendum. The EU will soon be fast disappearing in the rear view mirror.

—----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same here, in fact I'll be 85 Like most pensioners we'll have less choices than the young to mitigate any negative changes...not withstanding we asked our adult children what they wanted to do - they voted in and so did we.

One thing that concerns me greatly is that a downturn in tax receipts will mean that children's services are badly affected...for children with issues, help is already difficult and the help given needs to be timely....it's no good going back in twenty years and trying to stick a plaster on the problem, the damage will be done.

Obviously I also worry for my children's jobs, and jobs in general neither of my children is in a sector that would obviously be at risk, but in a recession no job is safe......

Mrs May has abandoned George Osbornes fiscal policy of repaying the deficit ....that concerns me as I suspect some of her policies may increase our debt for generations to come..

I don't think any of these things are selfish.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to respond to individual posts but.

1. I have in the past been very loyal to the UK. My motivation for voting remain was because I believed, and still do, that the best place for Britain to be is the EU and that also offers the best chance for younger people. These views have not changed.

2. if in deed the UK has changed to the extent that it wishes to follow an isolationist or separatist path so be it, but I cannot go with it. As I still feel attached to Britain as the land of my birth of course I will continue to fight for it through democratic means, especially as the exact degree of isolationism it desires seems to be unclear.

3. This is not an unreasonable or out of character rant..There have always been things that I believe are worth fighting for, and the subtle take over by extreme nationalism is one of them.

4. In a way I am torn though, between feeling an immense sadness at seeing Britain become the laughing stock of the world..and on the other hand thinking well..they got what they wished for and just enjoy watching it sink. If I didn't still have some family there then I think the latter would be more appealing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="lindal1000"] 3. This is not an unreasonable or out of character rant..There have always been things that I believe are worth fighting for, and the subtle take over by extreme nationalism is one of them. 4. In a way I am torn though, between feeling an immense sadness at seeing Britain become the laughing stock of the world..and on the other hand thinking well..they got what they wished for and just enjoy watching it sink. If I didn't still have some family there then I think the latter would be more appealing.[/quote]

 

100% with you on number 3.

 

Re 4, I wonder if the general feeling expressed by most on the forums, and I appreciate I am in a small minority, whether they would have the same feelings had they never left the UK? Is theirs in sync with the general feeling in the UK or because of their circumstances and feelings of uncertainty?

I really dont know, I was only in the UK for a few hours and only spoke to 2 neighbours plus some Spaniards, French and Portuguese in town, its easy for people to find and post articles etc that re-inforce the way they feel but we, all of us are a minority that chose to leave and should not really expect consideration regarding the UK's future.

I recall being in Portugal (I think) when the Brighton bombing happened and I was really shaken, it seemed so close to my home (which was then indeed my home and not the one from my previous life) yet when the London bombings happened I was at home, they were same distance away give or take a few kms yet I was pretty much unmoved by them.

 

In my head and heart I left the UK behind me 13 years ago when I planned my exit yet I did not even know where I would be going to, I have an aunty, recently deceased who lived some 30 years in Australia and South Africa but in her head and heart she always remained in the UK.

Maybe it depends on where you call home, for me it is anywhere that I lay my hat long enough to start unpacking and arranging things, making some order around me no matter for how little time, if I will be there the next day then its my home. I rarely look back either other than to reflect on what I have learned from pas décisions.

I am looking forward to spending a few weeks in the UK at the end of the year when things have settled down, gauging peoples feelings especially the immigrants, what I saw one week after the referendum seemed completely at odds with the sentiments expressed here but it was too early to judge and too little time. I think people in general are more relaxed, less likely to over-react when they are at home, it certainly was the case for me in the past but not since leaving the UK to travel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ebaynut wrote:

'PaulT,

I see that you live in Lincolnshire, clearly I don't know where, but guess you are nearer to Boston than any other poster on this forum. Why do you think that is was only 75% of the voters in this town, which has been over run with people from outside the UK who voted to leave? Are there really 25% of voters there who are exploiting the 'newcomers' in some way that wanted them to stay so much they voted to remain?

I have never been to the town, so don't know it, but it has been featured many times in TV programs lately.'

Firstly, I find your tone abhorrent -'why do you think it was only 75% of the voters in this town' (voted Leave) but I will reply

Now Boston is not anywhere that I have spent time in, merely passed through or visited Wickes there'.

Yes, there are a lot of eastern europeans there - there is a lot of agriculture and the need for a lot of manual work. I can only assume that 75% voted to leave because of the immigrants - the xenophobic streak. The 25% voting to Remain identifying with the need for workers. I wonder how many of the 75% would be prepared to be out in the fields in January at 6am in snow, rain etc cutting cabbages?

From the TV it would seem that there are a lot of shops to cater for the incomers, such as Polish food shops which, if I were there would certainly explore to try something new.

Our local supermarket in France has part of an aisle with Union Flags on it and produce from the UK for the Brits. If Brits want Marmite etc why should not Poles want what they are used to?

I can also walk along a UK street and see Indian restaurants - why not complain about them and say 'what we need are restaurants serving good old British grub'.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Russethouse"]I also noticed that you stated earlier in one of your posts that it could be another twenty years before the UK would see any benefit from leaving the EU, and you would be eighty by then, so selfish, what about the next generations, what about our kids, do you not want a better world for them moving forward?? However I guess we have a different view of what is better, luckily, the majority share my view and won the referendum. The EU will soon be fast disappearing in the rear view mirror. —---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Same here, in fact I'll be 85 Like most pensioners we'll have less choices than the young to mitigate any negative changes...not withstanding we asked our adult children what they wanted to do - they voted in and so did we. One thing that concerns me greatly is that a downturn in tax receipts will mean that children's services are badly affected...for children with issues, help is already difficult and the help given needs to be timely....it's no good going back in twenty years and trying to stick a plaster on the problem, the damage will be done. Obviously I also worry for my children's jobs, and jobs in general neither of my children is in a sector that would obviously be at risk, but in a recession no job is safe...... Mrs May has abandoned George Osbornes fiscal policy of repaying the deficit ....that concerns me as I suspect some of her policies may increase our debt for generations to come.. I don't think any of these things are selfish.[/quote]

 

Sorry to make a mess of your post but it's your forum software.

 

I don't think people over 45 should have been allowed to vote. Leaving the EU will hardly effect them at all except their house may lose a bit of it's value. The people it will effect is us under 30's. Yet again we are made to pay for the baby boomers. Many of my old school and work friends back in the UK are seriously considering their options and nearly half are looking to emigrate because of the UK leaving the EU. If, and nobody knows at the moment, there are others like my friends who are considering leaving it will strip the UK of it's young and brightest leaving an old decaying society behind that will be going nowhere.

 

The Banana man said EU money to research and development will be cut, do you really think those young people working on these projects will hang around hoping somebody somewhere will give them funding? Of course they won't hang around and wait, they will simply take their skills to where the money is. As you say the problem then is tax receipts. All these people earn good salaries and pay a lot of tax, that money, if they do indeed leave, will no longer be there. In twenty years time the UK will then be pleading for immigrants to go and work and fill this fiscal tax hole. People wonder why the Germans took all those refugees, well a willing workforce of hundreds of thousands don't turn up on your doorstep every day looking for work and that you can tax.

 

Personally I was going back to the UK having worked a few years for my folks here in France but I can't see myself going back now and there are plenty of jobs for microbiologists in Europe as all the major pharmaceutical companies are now based here. Thankfully, my mother being Irish, means I got an Irish passport a few months back just in case so I won't have to face many of the problems my old friends will if they come to Europe although I imagine the places they are most likely to work will supply them with EU Blue Card's. So yes I am alright Jack thank my mother very much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excuse me - but it is you overlooking a very very important point.

It was that the possibility existed - it could easily have happened - you didn't know how the votes would turn out;  you couldn't guarantee the result.

It WAS a possibility - and it could have happened - and it would have been because of the eu and the echr....... and is the means for UK common law to be over-ridden by 'foreign powers'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On another note, published in another place ..the current criteria for Auto Entrepreneur at the moment is that you have to be French or a citizen from an EU or EEA country to be eligible. Worth thinking about, especially if negotiations look like they are heading towards the WTO model.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's going to depend very much on whether 'retrospective' applies or not;  personally I'd be very surprised if the eu/UK made rules 'retrospective' - it certainly wouldn't be in the interests of France to do so..

Just as a matter of interest - came across this today -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/14/europeans-are-intensely-emotional-about-free-movement-they-wont/

It is almost a grudging acceptance that because of the UK's 1000 year history of not being invaded, of not having close neighbours living over borders in different countries - that there are good, proven, psychological grounds for the UK's ambivalence about the eu.   They do explain the psychological national feeling;  that we made the break from Rome, that we have a constitution and a Bill of Rights coming from that break (and on which the American Constitution is based) and our common law (effectively UK citizens can do anything provided there is 'no lor agin it' (remember 'Just William'?); whereas the european countries, with more recent nation states and democracies are based on the 'you can't do anything unless there is a law that permits it' - in other words european citizens 'belong' to the state - and the state 'gives' them rights - which is totally at odds with the UK, and explains all sorts of reasons why there are huge differences - 1000 years of history - which cause problems.

The UK is now free, again, to decide it's own role in the world - and it seems the world is quite happy to welcome the UK with many countries already talking about wanting to arrange tade deals...

The future's bright, the future's ours - and if we don't like the decisions we can kick out those who have made them...............unlike at present.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see nothing in your description of the Uk psyche that resonates with me or anyone else I know, although maybe it does with some of the 52% of the 70% of voters that voted leave. That still leaves a whole lot of other people.

Maybe because my generation have benefitted from living and working in other countries and don't see that stretch of water around the Uk as anything other than an imaginary barrier.?

I don't particular like the decisions being made in my name at the moment, but then as you say we are free to kick out this lot by 2020 and then vote for people to take us back into the EU if we wish. I am definitely European by nature not British. I would like to see the negotiations allowing people like me to retain our European citizenship even if the UK as a nation leaves. Can you see that as a possibility?

. Can you understand Chessie that while you may feel you have gained somehow by strengthening this imaginary barrier around the Uk, others of us are feeling that we have lost something that is as much part of our cultural identity as the barrier is to you. This has nothing to do with in which direction the 48/52 vote went, because had it gone the other way, the sense of loss would have been the same for you. How do you reconcile the two sides? How do you ensure that all of us can keep the things that are fundamental to our being? It is not just a case of 'stop being a sore loser and get over it' because for me, what I stand to lose is a very important part of my identity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...