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[quote user="Tancrède"][quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Nevertheless, the worst fear of Brexit was always going to be Scotland thinking of breaking away from the UK.[/quote]I cast my vote guided solely by my principles as a libertarian and democrat. 

But I have to admit that the possibility of the secession of Scotland from the Union did cross my mind as an unintended but beneficial consequence.

[/quote]

Tancrède, I'll probably go along with that, bearing in mind the greatest good for the greatest number (something like that) if the Scots truly want to go it alone, then off ye must go. And the best of (ex-) British to ye all.

Just remember the bit about joining the EU requires joining the Euro as well and, maybe check the latest salvo in the oil-price war, it may be relevant. Yon wee lassie forgot about those factors for "her" referendum, it would appear.

The banks will do well, as per normal, with their Exchange booths alongside a new Hadrian's wall.
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Chancer - Oh almost forgot the pound crashing to a 30 year low against the dollar, and against all other world currencies.

Dead right Chancer.

Anyone who is surprised at large currency variations - either way - has learnt a valuable lesson, perhaps.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"][quote user="chessie"]Demand for French housing could increase by 400% !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's a great thought -

means the value of our homes could increase by ginormous amount !!!!!!!!!!

[/quote]

ummmm.....in Paris and other French cities yes, the Costa del Dordogne........not so much.

Talking of which, all the those banks and financial institutions threatening to move their operations and staff to Paris need have a reality check. Where exactly are their staff going to live ? The shortage of housing in Paris is ridiculous and it is not going to improve in the short term.

I am guessing they will stay in the UK.[/quote]

Exactly, it is not difficult to understand your point, but it is difficult to explain it away or to ignore it.

One of so many.
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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Exactly Mr Chancer

Exciting times ahead. Don't dwell on the negatives think of the positives both for France and the UK.

I do hope though that a certain 'place elsewhere' (as you put it) goes out of business along with the charmless idiots that run the show. That would be a big positive.[/quote]

Oui, mille fois Oui.
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[quote user="Judith"]The blind leading the halt and lame, or VV.  ????

Whichever way, I'm already fed up of the follow-on from the debacle of the campaign.  And hardly a decisive vote - just about split down the middle, now that is why, as I understand it, in Switzerland, who could be considered to know how to run a referendum campaign since they run a fair few, there should (yes, I use should, intentionally) always be a fixed percentage of votes for below which the referendum does not pass.  75% one way or the other seems to be a good figure ... anything below that seems completely inconclusive and will lead to problems later on.

So the UK is split down the middle on this issue, who'd want to be there when the s***t hits the fan.

[/quote]

OK, Let’s change the rules for, say, basketball too. A win of 59 points to 58 points is “hardly decisive” either. So let’s change the rules and make the teams play again, after a suitable period, naturally. Why not ?

Like, I mean, you know what I’m saying, at the end of the day, it’s not as if one came in front of the other, is it ?

We must apply this interesting viewpoint to horse and greyhound racing as well. Oh Yes – and Cricket ..
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[quote user="cajal"]

Nigel Farrage should be congratulated for ensuring democracy is still the bedrock of the British way of life and B Johnson/ T May/ M Gove (I think G Osborne can be ruled out) must negotiate strong and hard to ensure the best possible withdrawl terms from the EU.

regards

cajal

[/quote]

Yes, Yes, Yes.

Without the ceaseless efforts of Nigel Farage, the referendum would not have been called. David Cameron used it attempting to make political profit, reluctantly, but it happened and it's proven, to me anyway, the need for the referendum is transparently clear.

Now for the next steps - slowly, steadily and wisely.

BTW, my guess is Nigel Farage will/would be delighted to see the back of the Scots, in particular those loathsome Scottish louts who attacked him with his family. Have we all forgotten what Scottish democracy can be like when it turns nasty ?
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[quote user="ernie"] ummmm.....in Paris and other French cities yes, the Costa del Dordogne........not so much. Talking of which, all the those banks and financial institutions threatening to move their operations and staff to Paris need have a reality check. Where exactly are their staff going to live ? The shortage of housing in Paris is ridiculous and it is not going to improve in the short term. I am guessing they will stay in the UK[/quote]

 

Apart from a very few select staff who are probably American anyway I think most will be signing on in the UK and not moving to Paris anyway.

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The Sun says:

The article claimed the following consequences of the UK leaving the EU:

1. Inflation is likely to rise

2. The cost of an average family holiday will rise

3. Accommodation abroad will cost more

4. Beer prices will go up

5. EU caps on international calls will no longer apply, so it will cost much more to make calls in Europe

6. Unemployment will rise, and wages will fall by up to four percent

7. Mortgage prices will rise

8. Rates of taxation will increase

9. Benefit payments may be slashed

Link:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-sun-has-also-got-around-to-telling-its-readers-what-brexit-will-mean-and-they-are-not-happy--WySvafrAVZ

I hope the Sun readers are all going to thank Mr Murdoch for totally lying to them in the poxy right-wing rag called the Sun. It makes for hilarious reading, the comments below the article, add that to the comments in the Daily Mail  article basically saying the same thing, and you get the impression that the natives are not happy. Still you have 'got your country back'.

As things stand at the moment the UK now does not have a government, an opposition party, and Bozo and his merry men have disappeared from the face of the earth, as they have admitted they do not have a plan.

The pound continues to slump against the dollar, down to somewhere in the region of 1.32 the last time that I looked. Easyjet and Foxtons this morning issued profit warnings, the house builders and banks are continuing their decline. The list goes on and it has only been 4 days since the decision to leave the EU was announced. Well played lads.

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So the price of beer will rise - doesn't the UK produce its own.

International calls - right - a huge part of the cost of living.

S Rose actually said at a HoC s-c meeting that 'wages will have to rise' (if the UK voted to leave) - that was an admission that M&S and others haven't been paying proper wages

Interest rates - going down, likely to stay down.

It will be swings and roundabouts;  the economists know nothing - it isn't a science, and they have got things so wrong in the past;  if they were so clever how is it that Lehman Bros, Goldman Sachs etc 'had problems'.

The sight of G Brown signing away 'our 1000 years of history' (Gaitskell) - in a darkened room, away from the rest of the eu cabal, and photographers - sums up the shabby and disturbing ethos of the eu.

Here's another sidebar;  how many of you have had letters from your UK banks asking about your tax residency - not a problem.  We complete French tax forms - not a problem.

You do realise that your tax number (or UK NI number) - has become an eu Tax number - so that they 'can track you anywhere in the eu';  not a problem - right ?

Wrong - because the eu is plotting tax and welfare harmonisation;  one of the plans, which may well be announced this week, is an eu tax - over and above and separate from any UK or French tax;  guess how they intend to collect that eu tax - through your glossy, gleaming, brand new 'eu tax number' - or hasn't that dawned on anyone ?

Exports will be cheaper if the £ falls;  we've coped with currency ups and downs before now - we'll continue to do so.   For UK manufacturers a low £ is good;  there are going to be huge, huge problems in the eu in the next few years - like to bet that the euro isn't going to fall in value - by a huge amount.

Independence, sovereignty, and our 1000 years count for far more than money.....

And the dream has been destroyed - by the 'elites' - NOT by european citizens.

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[quote user="Grecian"]I hope the Sun readers are all going to thank Mr Murdoch for totally lying to them .......
[/quote]

 

When Murdoch was asked why he wants the UK to leave the EU he said "It's simple, when I go to Downing Street they do what I say: when I go to Brussels they take no notice.".

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Well Chessie not sure about the price of beer but certainly petrol and supermarket goods. Not so much the movement of the Euro against GBP but the USD. Price per barrel of oil has dropped a bit over the last couple of days but only equates to about 15% of the change in price with exchange to GBP. Looks like a 7 to 11p per ltr increase on the way and it might be more. More you pay for petrol and diesel the more you pay to get your food delivered.

 

The harmonising of EU welfare would have increased the UK state pension by more than double. Have a look at the article in Which magazine.

 

Exports may cost less but as Brexit pointed out we import 50% of our goods from the EU so as the rate changes exports get cheaper but imports cost more. Add the cost the change in the rising fuel costs and you could be paying anywhere between 20% and 35% more.

 

The there was nice Mr Martin McGuinness who has absolutely nothing to do with the IRA of course saying on TV yesterday that the IRA high command would consider the return of border controls as the cancelling of the Good Friday Agreement and the cessation of "military" action in NI and the UK.

 

It's not the obvious you need to look at but then that was always the problem with "Leave".

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"Wrong - because the eu is plotting tax and welfare harmonisation; one of the plans, which may well be announced this week, is an eu tax - over and above and separate from any UK or French tax"

Where did you get that from, please? Sounds like another scare story to me...

- I think most people do what they should with tax so not sure what the problem is about being 'tracked'.

- exports won't be cheaper if there is going to be export tax tagged on, remains to be seen
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]"Wrong - because the eu is plotting tax and welfare harmonisation; one of the plans, which may well be announced this week, is an eu tax - over and above and separate from any UK or French tax" Where did you get that from, please? Sounds like another scare story to me... - I think most people do what they should with tax so not sure what the problem is about being 'tracked'. - exports won't be cheaper if there is going to be export tax tagged on, remains to be seen[/quote]

 

Well she is sort of right in that it is something that is being discussed but that's it. I did notice however that "Leave" didn't mention the new Tax law that came in to force about three or four weeks ago that says all companies within the EU must show their pre tax profits, the tax they have paid and where they have paid it. Whilst the UK had settled on a deal with Google the French, the day after the law came into force, raided Google offices in France. The days of Google, Amazon, EBay etc. shuffling their money around the EU to evade paying tax have now come to an abrupt end. I can't find the original link on the EU website but this gives an idea http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/04/panama-papers-eu-tax/

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The tax and welfare harmonisation is there in the 5 Presidents Report - and other reports - would suggest you check it out.

There was a report, and damnation but didn't keep the link - probably Guardian piece - which in the last week DID talk about a separate eu tax;  not just the Guardian but Telegraph and FT as well.

And of course, there's nothing wrong about us being tracked (after all we're not the Sir Phillip Greens of this world are we?) - but you can follow the thinking can't you.   Anyway, this has been passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee for a 'European Taxpayer Identification Number' to keep track of every eu citizen.    And your UK NI number is now a European TIN - check it; same as France.    Right; fine; not a problem - until you think through the implications...because HMRC now regard every UK citizen as owing them XXX £s unless you can prove you only owe X £s.  French system ? 

And the tax and welfare harmonisation is not new;  again check out Guardian pages;  and the 'harmonisation' - averaging out - including Bulgaria, Roumania, Albania, Macedonia..... you can see where that one will go.

Anyway, I work on the principle that I don't trust any of them, not one, none of them at all;  in that immortal phrase - 'I am NOT a number.!!' - just don't like the 'feel' of it - another method of control.

If the £ goes down - doesn't that make exports - to the rest of the world - cheaper ?   And any eu imposed tariffs - well two can play at that game surely ?

We just need grown up reasonable sensible people in charge;  have we got that in the UK - nope;  have we got that in the eu - nope;  too much bad feeling both sides.  (Civil servants probably OK but they've been inculcated with 'the eu wants/demands/has banned.....' and might not able to think independently any more).

Possibly we should bring in experienced trade negotiators from Canada, Australia and New Zealand - under our new points system - as being skilled, need, professional, qualified people.

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[quote user="chessie"]The tax and welfare harmonisation is there in the 5 Presidents Report - and other reports - would suggest you check it out.

There was a report, and damnation but didn't keep the link - probably Guardian piece - which in the last week DID talk about a separate eu tax;  not just the Guardian but Telegraph and FT as well.

And of course, there's nothing wrong about us being tracked (after all we're not the Sir Phillip Greens of this world are we?) - but you can follow the thinking can't you.   Anyway, this has been passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee for a 'European Taxpayer Identification Number' to keep track of every eu citizen.    And your UK NI number is now a European TIN - check it; same as France.    Right; fine; not a problem - until you think through the implications...because HMRC now regard every UK citizen as owing them XXX £s unless you can prove you only owe X £s.  French system ? 

And the tax and welfare harmonisation is not new;  again check out Guardian pages;  and the 'harmonisation' - averaging out - including Bulgaria, Roumania, Albania, Macedonia..... you can see where that one will go.

Anyway, I work on the principle that I don't trust any of them, not one, none of them at all;  in that immortal phrase - 'I am NOT a number.!!' - just don't like the 'feel' of it - another method of control.

If the £ goes down - doesn't that make exports - to the rest of the world - cheaper ?   And any eu imposed tariffs - well two can play at that game surely ?

We just need grown up reasonable sensible people in charge;  have we got that in the UK - nope;  have we got that in the eu - nope;  too much bad feeling both sides.  (Civil servants probably OK but they've been inculcated with 'the eu wants/demands/has banned.....' and might not able to think independently any more).

Possibly we should bring in experienced trade negotiators from Canada, Australia and New Zealand - under our new points system - as being skilled, need, professional, qualified people.

[/quote]

chessie - back on line I am, unusually. May I take a huge chance and agree with all*** you post here ?

The "chance" part (which may cause temporary merriment to some) is because I am informed posts have been removed. I make no complaint, not worth it, but I do admit I would rather like to know which ones. Knowledge is strength !

*** Para 5 especially.
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Thus far I have refrained from entering this debate but now I feel I must add a little something. The context is that I have just had a week in England which was spent in an around London and in the Midlands with a wide range of people, from poor to well off.

As of today I feel deeply ashamed of my native country and its citizens and I am not sure how to react to this as, despite having mainly spent my life abroad I used to think that being English was a bit special; I once heard a hardbitten customs man in a Middle Eastern country purr with pleasure when he discovered my nationality.

What I saw and heard was racism of all kinds, though mainly disguised by talk of jobs taken and schools/NHS overload. Frankly it was disgusting. I gather that the number of racist attacks and incidents is increasing daily.

Then a kind of beggar my neighbour selfishness and Little Englanderness (!), more dog in a manger than anything else.

And an older generation, my generation I am sad to say, which has retreated behind a blue rinsed wall of nationalism.

And selfishness, b*gger the young, let's pull up the drawbridge. Great Bobo, you need a good spanking some of you.

Noone has discussed the facts, looked at the real information, the reasons for things changing and being changed from Brussels (which has by the way the power we granted to it and which can always be overruled by the European Parliament.)

People in finance already talk of jobs being threatened, of deals being pulled or contracts not being maintained. Listen guys, if you wanna keep the famous NHS well funded you need the taxes and revenues they pay, or you will have to dig deep into those incomes to pay for it.

Where do we go from here? Ironically, the people most opposed to Brexit, the bankers and the businessmen will have to pull the nuts of the rest out of the fire, if their jobs are still there.

Ignorance and stupidity have won the day, so far, and but when they have fondled their bent cucumbers abnd stopped whining about sharing wealth to help poorer parts of Europe develop, they will find themselves poorer, prouder, but unemployed and sad.

Tax harmonisation will help stop European tax dodgers, Chessie, stop the yobs in suits and white vans as well as Porsches (or Ferraris) from getting away with it.

Want an example - well, ask any Belgian with a big property in say France or Italy where the money came from; chances are they will go very quiet, but I have a very good idea what to say to make them squirm.

Something will be worked out, of course it will, but we will NOT have straight cucumbers for the simple reason that it takes more space to pack them for the market. But you will be able to pick your own.

And why shouldn't the French or the Germans or the Swedes catch Google, Apple, Macdonalds, Ikea and others out if they are fiddling too, preferably by sending in the gendarmes before they can destroy the evidence.

But then, I guess the National Front is alive and kicking and in the little Englander island I used to be so proud of.

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Well all is well....Boris has said all is stable...

These people take a different view though, but then they are only 'experts': what can they know...

S&P cuts UK's credit agency by two notches and warns it could cut further following Brexit vote

Ratings agency Standard &

Poor's hit Britain with a two-notch downgrade to its credit rating on

Monday and warned it could cut it further after Britons voted to leave

the European Union on Thursday.

The ratings agency said: 

"The downgrade reflects our view that the “leave” result in the

U.K.’s referendum on the country’s EU membership ("Brexit") will weaken

the predictability, stability, and effectiveness of policymaking in the

U.K. and affect its economy, GDP growth, and fiscal and external

balances. We have revised our view of the U.K.'s institutional

assessment and we no longer consider it to be a strength in our

assessment of the U.K.'s key rating factors. The downgrade also reflects

what we consider enhanced risks of a marked deterioration of external

financing conditions in light of the U.K.’s extremely elevated level of

gross external financing requirements (as a share of current account

receipts and usable reserves). The Brexit result could lead to a

deterioration of the U.K.’s economic performance, including its large

financial services sector, which is a major contributor to employment

and public receipts. The result could also trigger a constitutional

crisis if it leads to a second referendum on Scottish independence from

the U.K."

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Just to clarify. I removed two posts by Ernie from this thread. The reason was one which just said "duplicate post" and the other immediately adjacent to it was blank. I did this so that this rather long thread would be a little easier to read. It was not censorship.

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Yes - I'm rather disappointed - but there could be a good explanation for it all you know.

For years, and years, and years - no-one in the UK was allowed to make ANY kind of reasonable criticism about the NUMBERS - and it was the NUMBERS that were of great concern.

UK citizens were told they were 'thick, lazy, rascist, xenowotsit etc etc' - all the insults the faux snooty sanctimonious anglo-phobic value-signalling insults that could be thrown at the lower income, lower to medium ordinary decent people of the UK - who kept the country working - were thrown relentlessly, year after year.

They were NOT allowed to give voice to their genuine concerns.   They were shut up.   So of course there's been growing resentment - and fury at the politicians and the so-called trendies from the bbc and the guardian etc etc.

We are seeing a nation that was silenced;  a nation that did have real and genuine concerns - that were being ignored for far too long.   Fortunately in the UK, unlike many other countries, there is very little move to the far-left or the far-right.   The UK citizens put up, shut up and got on with things - with a growing resentment.

Is it any wonder that, for the time being, there's a bit of a release of tension going on;  maybe they can't believe they actually had the courage to stand up for their own country - for once - and they no longer care about being sneered at;  the little people have found their voice.

I do sincerely hope it's a short-term, passing phase;  but then we've had an incident, mentioned on this forum, about a British person here in France having a lighted cigarette thrown at him in his car - by a Frenchman.    Human nature is everywhere - regardless of nationality.

I just hope this blows over;  and that the normal decent british behaviour returns - I'm sure it will - I'd be disappointed if it didn't - but these people, the british people, were ignored for too long;  whose fault is that ?

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The irony:

Downgrade of France's long-term credit rating

On

November 11, 2011 S&P erroneously announced the cut of France's

triple-A rating (AAA). French leaders said that the error was

inexcusable and called for even more regulation of private credit rating

agencies (CRA's).

On January 13, 2012 S&P truly cut France's AAA rating, lowering it

to AA+. This was the first time since 1975 that Europe's second-biggest

economy, France, had been downgraded to AA+. The same day S&P

downgraded the rating of eight other European countries: Austria, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Malta, Slovenia, Slovakia and Cyprus.

regards

cajal

 
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During the campaign there has been repeated reference to the undemocratic nature of the EU but is there real democracy in the UK outside of referenda. In parliamentary elections it is very unusual for more than a third of seats to change hands. A good proportion of the electorate live in so-called safe seats which rarely change hands except in very exceptional circumstances. People living in this type of seat are effectively disenfranchised compared to those who live in marginal seats where a vote can really make a difference both in the local result and in deciding who the next government will be.

IMO this can explain why people thought they were being ignored and why they took the chance to teach the elite a lesson.

The campaign on both sides was not of a high standard and in some instances downright misleading. The Exit side do not seem to have considered what to do if they won. Boris's plan of having informal talks before implementing Article 50 seems to be a non-starter now that France, Germany and Italy have made it clear that there will be no talks until the implementation. 

Since the Exit side think it is the UK's interest to leave I wonder why they are procrastinating. Indeed it makes me question their real motives

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