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Great - now what???


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I think judging a country by its tweets is a bit desparate. Social media is all about PR, it's not about integrity.

Spain is worried about losing tourist revenue, it's a calculated marketing exercise.

Of course the UK wants to soften the impact of its vote - it's saying "OK so I'm sueing for divorce but I'd like us to stay good friends so you give me a good deal on the alimony."

As for France, how can it in good faith reassure expats that they will always be welcome in France because the UK will look after them, keep paying for their healthcare, whatever they're worried about? It can't, it doesn't know.

What value London's tweet if negotiations go wrong and it turns out the French are no longer welcome in London?

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QUOTE: "Why do you use the word 'expat'? Expats who have been placed abroad by their company or Government and will return to the home country at the end of the tour of duty are not the main issue.

Immigrants who have moved permanently to the other country are a different question" QUOTE

So what is an expat who remains in the country after leaving their employment ???

Maybe I should just call British expats/immigrants in this context "EU Citizens" while I still can.

Further to you other point "I don't see any reason for France to reassure immigrants from a country that has voted to leave the Union"

I can think of many reasons !!!! If you have lived and worked and positively contributed to the country then some recognition would not go amiss.
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[quote user="Cathar Tours"]

I can see a train in the tunnel with a big bright light on the front called Scotland and the words devolution referendum on the side. From what I can make of the 'graphics' all of Scotland voted to remain.

 

As to how things will go this simulation gives a bit of an idea.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRKOr_RhdyA

 

There is a part two as well.

[/quote]

Your take on the “Scottish Express” is interesting. Two matters spring to mind, the price of oil and the fact that a certain young lassie is much better known now than when she was a year or so ago (don’t do dates all that well). Her performance on the TV debate (I should have said argument) I saw was lamentable and extremely biased. These factors may alter her expectations if Scotland is allowed to have yet another referendum so soon after the preceding one. Although it is SOP for the EU/EC crowd (think France, Netherlands, Ireland) to make “democratic” states keep voting until the democracies vote as they are told. The result may well be different. Just my opinion.
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Well it ain't all bad [:)]

"The global stock market rout was costly for the UK’s 15 richest

individuals, who between them lost £4bn during the day, according to

news organisation Bloomberg’s billionaire index.

Britain’s richest person, Gerald Grosvenor, the Duke of Westminster,

led the decline with a loss of £727m, followed by Topshop owner Philip

Green, fellow land baron Earl Cadogan, and Bruno Schroder of money

manager Schroders."
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Lots of good stuff there idun, I'm right with you. Truth is, nobody knows.

So far, I haven't seen a guess (most of the current stuff is guessing in any case, is it not ?) about the situation of the excelent French workers in the UK (not sure - 300, 000/400,000 ?) I believe the chances of them being "required to leave" are equal to the number of UK passport holders resident in France notionally being “required to leave” in the opposite direction.

In the extremely unlikely event of such a catastrophic situation, France would be a massive loser, do the numbers. It’s not a zero-sum game by many means.

Of course there will be bumps and bangs, as well as some heavy collisions, but that happens all the time.

For me, the main and vital point is that the UK will be able to guide and direct and control its own future, not have to sit and suffer being told what to do by 2nd and 3rd tier states (financially and commercially, think Romania, Latvia, Slovenia, Slovakia). The EU performance drops every single year, no FTAs with the big boys (USA, China, Russia) even though they exist with Seychelles and … The Faroe Islands ... Wow !

Several EU states are in imminent danger of collapsing, yet the only solution offered is “ever closer union”.

Non Merci, Nein Danke etc is what the British people have said.

Here endeth the lesson for today.

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So, idun, you do not like Herr Juncker ? But he is such a well-mannered and well- behaved president, is he not ? Observing the proprieties and so on ?

Check this vid :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU

Over 1 mill have seen it - and me twice.
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Most Brits in France are retired whilst most French in the UK are there for the work. As such the Brits that are retired in France contribute little (by comparison) via income tax and social income to the state.

 

France, like most other EU countries, has it's own set of problems created by watching the UK leave and they will address them first and quite rightly so. It's not like we were thrown out the EU, we chose to leave. Le Penn is already banging on about a French referendum on the EU and she is likely to be in the second round at the next presidential elections. Like the UK I suspect whoever runs to oppose her may well offer a referendum like Cameron did just to get Le Penn's votes.

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chessie - Are you aware of halal slaughtering in the UK ? Do you know how much halal meat is offered fro sale in non-halal retail outlets ? You might be surprised.

If you have a strong stomach, take a look at some secret videos made by courageous people :

WARNING - it's bad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11384505/Secret-halal-slaughterhouse-film-reveals-horrific-animal-abuse.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2603360/Horror-halal-slaughterhouse-Shocking-undercover-film-shows-needless-suffering-livestock-butchered-without-stunned-first.html

They are not enjoyable, sometimes, the Truth is like that.
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No Idea whatsoever what that post has to do with Brexit, ernie, other than to fuel a spot of prejudice.

Like so many other things...just how far up the agenda, assuming it ever makes it onto the agenda in the first place, do you think that sort of thing will be?

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Before the referendum Idle Garage....

 

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” (16th May 2016)

 

Now it seems a petition have been started on the Parliamentary website for a second referendum with over 850k signatures already. So many signed it that the website "fell over" yesterday.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Also the referendum is not legally binding in law i.e. the HoC could override it by having a parliamentary vote. I don't think they would dare to ignore it but who knows. Perhaps they will use the petition as a breathing space to go to the EU and negotiate some changes over say migration, sovereignty and democracy as other members have similar concerns which the EU Council of Ministers has recognised after the UK result.

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Cathy Tours Wrote "Most Brits in France are retired whilst most French in the UK are there for the work. As such the Brits that are retired in France contribute little (by comparison) via income tax and social income to the state"

You could argue that British retires during their working life have contributed through tax to the 'EU project' (which the French keep telling everyone they invented) and also have economically revived communes/communities and renovated properties that would have otherwise rested in ruin. I think they have done more than you think.

France needs the UK more than the UK needs France. Which is why I don't get why FH and Merkal and other EU leaders before the referendum tried to scare British people with all their rhetoric into voting 'in' rather than see the bigger picture.

ONLY NOW since the UK has voted out, are they finally talking about reforms and making the EU more transparent and less bureaucratic.

WTF did they not say that before the vote and this mess could have been prevented. That is what the British people wanted to hear.

So if you want to blame people for the result blame Germany, France and the leaders of the EU.

The world is run by idiots.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Well it ain't all bad [:)]

"The global stock market rout was costly for the UK’s 15 richest

individuals, who between them lost £4bn during the day, according to

news organisation Bloomberg’s billionaire index.

Britain’s richest person, Gerald Grosvenor, the Duke of Westminster,

led the decline with a loss of £727m, followed by Topshop owner Philip

Green, fellow land baron Earl Cadogan, and Bruno Schroder of money

manager Schroders."[/quote]

Ah, didums!

Sure they can(n't) afford that! -;)

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" Yesterday, 15:40

chessie is not online. Last active: 26/05/2016 21:04:16 chessie

" Yesterday, 15:40

chessie is not online. Last active: 26/05/2016 21:04:16 chessie

...

...

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Quote "

As for NZ lamb - heard of quotas. And totally as a side-bar - why do you think that NZ and Oz are now responsible for the cruelty and disgusting obscene export of live animals to certain Muslim countries ? Any of you heard or know about the disgusting and appalling animal abuse that takes place?; partly the UK's responsibility because, again, part of the 'signing away of our Commonwealth ties' - was the non-importation of frozen meat from NZ and Oz."

There “You can” etc, I fixed it for you.

Sorry I pressed the wrong button and perplexed you. Maybe you will experience the great understanding thingie.

But your sweet little "dig" was on the button.

Yes Ma'am, I am prejudiced, very much as a matter of fact and obvious (in your case) interest. I picked up chessie’s point of the case of cruel and thoroughly nasty torturing of animals and I defo do not want to support this barbaric practice, nor be obliged to buy meat which is slaughtered in this way.

I hope you watched the vids, they are illuminating, few of us venture into killing places I’d say. But I understand if you couldn't face it, I did warn.

Neither do I do I like, not one tiny little bit, the Jewish slaughter technique, but the Jews do not force it on other people.

It’s a complex and vexing question, but the basic cause is not what you imply here “Like so many other things...just how far up the agenda, assuming it ever makes it onto the agenda in the first place, do you think that sort of thing will be? “

Honestly, that comes over as incomprehensible and tendentious nonsense, you seem to be out of your ground. It reminds me of Cameron warning UK voters not to vote leave as it might start WWIII. How’s that going I ask myself ?

...
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"France needs the UK more than the UK needs France."

Could you explain that, because I would really like to believe it, it would make me feel safe.

But the way I see it, France is still part of the gang, along with Germany et al. They're all having meetings to discuss what to do, but the UK isn't invited. Looks to me like the UK is johnny no mates.
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France economically is in a mess. Chomage increased AGAIN yesterday. France has the second worse budget deficit in the EU but they allowed to get away with it beacuse they are France. YCCMB talked about pensions in the UK !!!! If you think UK has a problem, my generation will have to work until they are 130 to get a pension in France. In fact, just forget about pensions. It ain't going to happen.

France needs the UK to provide work for its workforce; it needs the UK tourism; it needs its expats to live in rural France and feed the rural economy. It needs the UK to buy its exports.

Explain to me what economic benefit the UK gets from France.

The EU meeting is probably more to do with how to prevent the EU from breaking up. You would hope that they might have learnt a lesson yesterday. I don't guarantee it.
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[quote user="EuroTrash"]"France needs the UK more than the UK needs France." Could you explain that, because I would really like to believe it, it would make me feel safe. But the way I see it, France is still part of the gang, along with Germany et al. They're all having meetings to discuss what to do, but the UK isn't invited. Looks to me like the UK is johnny no mates.[/quote]

 

I am sort of along the same lines as you. I thought some of the comments in newspapers by those supporting Leave were somewhat condescending and arrogant. The UK is only 10% (slightly less actually) of the EU population. We import more from the EU than we export so a low exchange rate may be good for UK business exporting to the EU but bad for the imports from the EU. These people seem to think that because we import so much from the EU it makes us very important to them but they have not looked at it from the other end. Only 8% of goods made, grown etc. in the EU are exported to the UK. Then look at EU treaties trade being negotiated. We all think of TTIP and the Canadian treaty but there are a lot more out there to do with groups of African countries, South America etc. that are in progress or almost ready to sign. There are plenty of other avenues about to open for the EU and that 8% will easily be gobbled up by them. So are we really that important to the EU, no not really. The only thing we have done is made them wake up to the fact we are not the only country that wants to leave. The Council of Ministers has already said things need to change to stop others from possibly leaving which is a good thing I think.

 

There is a great misunderstanding when you read the Leave campaign comments about trade deals with the EU. The most quoted when it come to no trade deals was that "Germany won't be very happy because they export 500,000 cars to the UK and they don't want that stopped". The "Trade Treaties" are not about stopping imports, they are about paying import/export duty. An easy example is if you buy something on Ebay from the USA. When you actually pay import tax is added yet when you buy from another EU country it isn't. Ebay deals with the export/import paperwork as well. This is what will happen when the UK leaves the EU if we don't have a trade deal. If the US and EU ever agree TTIP these payments on Ebay will cease to exist. This is quite different to possibly placing tariffs on goods which the EU may well do and the question is would the UK go a tit for tat if they did.

 

The other thing is with the German cars is whilst 500,000 seems a lot car production in Germany at the end of 2015 was 6.3M. In other words 21% of German cars are exported to the UK. Most of those are Mercs, Audi and Porsche, the type of cars that rich people buy as a status symbol and if 15% tariff is added they will still pay because they own a Merc.

 

Some of the journalism has been a bit bad as well. In todays Guardian there was a bit about those with money voting to stay whilst the poor and uneducated voted to leave. I thought that was a terrible thing to say.

 

Lots of other threats as well. Last night French politicians talked about the Le Touquet agreement being invalid now and that the border should return to Dover. Vass said this a month or two back whilst the Daily Wail showed pictures of migrants on French beaches looking to cross the channel in dinghies.

 

One thing for sure is it will be an interesting 12 months.

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And another thing about NZ lamb, it suddenly appeared in France after the DGSE blew up the Rainbow Warrior and killed someone. Agents not really punished ...............as business is business nez pah![blink]

Re the young and voting, my cousin's grandson, a student, 19 years old voted 'out' both his parents, voted 'in'.

If as been said it is the 'old' who voted out, and the very old 'in'. I  would also  really like to see two things, one is how the vote was ie how men voted and how women voted, and also the cultural bias to this vote too, just curious really.

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I shall not mock the markets being hit, many people's pensions are invested in the markets and the billionaires won't miss a few millions, where as ordinary people will be affected if their pensions are reduced.

There was a french female journalist on tv last night more or less saying that the UK had to leave immediately, the vote was in and get the hell out of the EU. So Juncker and now her........ and all these rules?????????? The ones that the french and other countries take their own sweet time over and bend to suit their ways ......  the UK does not do that.

So I am glad that Cameron is leaving the starting of the next stage to the next PM. Good for him and even then, the new PM can take their time too, maybe a good negociating point.......... ie you know we are going to leave, but we decide when and we would like you to offer good terms. I do hope such good sense is brought into play.

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So Cameron will not be doing the negotiating which seems sensible for him and at the moment the media is expecting it to be Bozo, sorry BoJo. What sort of a negotiator is he?

What if those negotiations end up being to the very great detriment to the UK....or will it be excepting Scotland. If export markets are lost then it will mean manufacturing industries laying people off.

Suppose the good thing is that it should be the end of Farage and he can go back to being a banker (have I got that correct?). However, the even greater rise of the Scottish lassie who will drone on and on.

Read that Cameron put a block on 16 and 17 year olds voting because of the cost - he may now think it would have been cheap.

Will it be a brave or a foolish New World?
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Ernie - simple reply;  yes I'm well aware of Halal - and the obscenity and cruelty involved.  I'm also aware of what happens in the Vietnamese slaughter-houses.  

I'm a vegetarian - have been for 30 years.    I believe those that eat meat should take responsibility for what happens to animals in the final moments of their lives.   Meat eaters are hypocrites (mostly) - because they do not want to know, and refuse to accept the horrible reality.

As for Halal meat entering the general food chain - WITHOUT - people being informed - was totally disgusting, and extremely offensive.    Yes, Halal was allowed, as an exception, in the UK for a very small group.   Unfortunately the demand - NOT from that small group - has now become very large.    So much so, that the UK's excellent and above eu standards of animal welfare and compassion - has now been destroyed because of the demands from a substantial group.

It makes me sick to my stomach - and I wish those who ate meat were forced to confront the cruelty that is being inflicted in their name.

And yes - it does have a relevance to the UK leaving the eu - because one of the terms agreed by Heath at the time was to cut ALL the UK's ties with the Commonwealth.

Which included importation of NZ lamb and Oz meat products - so those countries had to find markets elsewhere - which has indirectly led to the increase in live animal exports.

And people who don't understand should maybe do some fact finding.  

It is only a side-bar, it is not really important as such in thise debate - but it is a DIRECT spin-off to the T&Cs when the UK was finally allowed to become paid up members of the club.

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If the UK is going to leave, I actually agree that it should get on with it. Personally I feel as if there's going to be a cloud of uncertainty over everything now until it's sorted, maybe I'm just feeling that way now because of the shock but I can't see it going away altogether. It's like waiting for an exam result and you can't move on until the letter arrives. Is there going to be hassle over staying here, would I have to apply for nationality if I want to say, do I want to do that, maybe I should be thinking about going back - nobody likes uncertainty and having to put plans on hold, I want to get on with my life, even if it means changing direction. And move that up to the grand scale, it's going to put a tourniquet on the whole economy, nobody in business can take long term decision before they know what the rules will be.
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I really don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of killing animals but I do think undertones are a bit racist. Why, well Kosher meat has been killed in the same way (different prayer) in the UK (and everywhere else) since the first Jews arrived so why pick on only Muslim traditions?
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