UKIP as seen by LePen

[NormanH]

About the only thing that separates UKIP from the French National Front is that the latter is honest. So says Marine le Pen..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/13/marine-le-pen-not-a-hairs-breadth-separates-front-national-and-ukip

[Chancer]

Le Pen predicted that her possible election as French president next year would be the third act of a “global revolution” that has seen the UK leave the EU and Donald Trump elevated to the White House.

 

Anyone wanting to bet against the above will get much shorter odds than before.

[woolybanana]

What is fuelling the rise of LePen, UKIP and other extreme nationalisitc, racist and xenophobic movements is that the doctrinaire solutions offered by the traditional left levellers have failed to bring prosperity for all, except those working for the system. Which has given rise to the simplistic populism of Trump, Farage and LePen.

Talking discreetly to people round here, they say that the traditional parties have failed them and their needs so, in their words, 'Why not give Marine a chance?'

[NormanH]

I agree that it is the failure of the system as it is, but I reckon the fault is more to be laid at the door of austerity policies and neo-con economics dating back to the Thatcher-Reagan era.

[woolybanana]

It is deeper than that, Norman. There has been a failure to manage the transition from the old, heavy industries, using well paid, pretty inflexible, semi-skilled labour to a technological and electronic age.

Education and training systems were largely and still are inappropriate and are failing to do the job.

Neo-cons or not, it would have happened, IMVHO, of course.

Interestingly, France seems to have gone into that phase slightly later than Britain, hence the strikes we have seen over the last few years in Continental, Goodyear etc. It still has a long way to go to sort its problems. But does seem to be doing well in such areas as alternative energy.

But the education system has largely failed; one good thing that the present mob might have done is to get the apprentice scheme going again, but the jury is still out.

[andyh4]

There is a strong element of truth in both views - they are not mutually exclusive.

Unskilled people feel a desperation as the jobs available to them have evaporated or are on a temporary basis and can offer no real prospect for long term employment.

For want of a better term, the middle classes have had austerity rammed down their throats for 8 years and have had enough. This has also hit the unskilled who have depended on state support, which is now being progressively removed.

You then have a large section of the population who feel that politicians have failed them - and they are probably right.

[Gluestick]

I love the endless repetition of the stock buzz and pejorative sobriquets! Xenophobic; Racist; Homophobic; Bigot, Fascist et al. Must have been reading the Scrungy Pretend "Students" Little Red Book, or, UAF propaganda...

Most interesting how UAF and their running dogs, turned out en masse this AM to protest outside the BBC studio because Andrew Marr was interviewing Marine Le Pen. As Marr explained (Credit to him), since Le Pen is a legitimate politician and now a significant force in French politics, then she is entitled to speak and he is obliged to listen. The bigots, in this case, of course, being the UAF and their running dogs, since their spavined perspective is that everyone is entitled to an opinion, all provided it is OUR opinion!

Clearly, such ersatz students do not include the English language, etymology and comprehension in their syllabi...

Bigot - Definition:

"noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions."

It is NOT "Racism" to wish to so balance immigration, as to only welcome in, those with adequate and marketable essential skills, rather than simply blink and allow in hordes of benefit scroungers who not only make zero contribution to a nation state's socio-economic fabric; furthermore, as too many European states have now realised - rather too late - make endless demands upon the host society, refuse point blank to properly integrate and, rather, create ghettos leading to reverse racism. Research, as just one example, Tower Hamlets, a borough of London.

Much of what many of you write is hugely patronising; as if you are far superior beings to the little guy simply trying to earn an honest living with personal dignity, feed his family and enjoy some modicum of peace and stability.

Face some sobering and unpalatable facts: the Western professional political class have failed; all of them, repeatedly and shamefully. Yet, according to yourselves, the little guy isn't entitled to either an opinion or any personal objectives. Nope! He and she is suffering from some mental disease called "Populism"!

Eventually, even the worm turns...........

[chessie]

Brilliant - excellent post.

Thank you for taking to task the sneers and contempt shown towards the ordinary people by the bigots who have refused to accept that there have been genuine concerns about NUMBERS -

not racist comments, not racist 'hatreds' not 'phobias' of any kind -

but REAL GENUINE CONCERN ABOUT NUMBERS -

and the effect on ordinary people's lives - their housing, schooling for their children, transport over-crowding (dangerously so in some cases), demands on health, energy, water etc etc etc

They are ALL real concerns - that were sneered at.

Now, to add to all those other bigotted words you have listed - there's another - new one -

it's called 'populist' - usually preceded by right-wing populist.

Populist means popular - ie - the voice of the people.

Since when was the people's voice deemed to be so inferior, and oh golly so 'working class' that they could be ignored.

There is real change sweeping across europe - real change.   Read any of the Greek newspapers about the sad situation for many Greek people - the ordinary people.

Look at Spain, Italy and other countries who are losing, much as Ireland has done in previous 'bad times' - their young people; leaving homes, families, communities to find work elsewhere -

because there is NOTHING FOR THEM in their own country.

And then the bigots sneer because the ordinary people have found their voice -

suddenly the ill-liberal lefties don't like it.  

It is the liberal lefties who have got us into this mess -

and now they sneer by referring to ordinary people views as - 'populist'.

Tough - populist - Voice of the People - who are demanding to be heard.... there's a ground swell of fury and anger at the way they have been ignored.

And it is entirely the fault of the ill-liberal extremist left-wingers who sneered.

Chessie

[nectarine]

Gluestick and Chessie - excellent posts! I'm with you on this!

[Lehaut]

And we have people like Robert Rochefort looking after our interests in Europe :(

[cajal]

[quote user="Lehaut"]And we have people like Robert Rochefort looking after our interests in Europe :([/quote]

Ah, that waannker.

" Interpellé pour exhibition sexuelle, Robert Rochefort plaide coupable Le

député européen, interpellé à la fin du mois d’août pour s’être

masturbé dans un magasin de bricolage, a accepté la peine que lui

proposait le parquet contre la reconnaissance de sa culpabilité."

Here

regards

cajal

[cajal]

People tend to view local or world events through their vision of ideoloy, ethnicity or social class. Around 15 years ago I remember seeing a programme on CH4 that was discussing an ideology termed 'illusion of assymetric insight" (another selection of 'buzz' words)

This is a belief that certain groups of people believe that they understand others views better than others understand theirs. ie "we understand your views better than you understand ours".

Apparently, not only do this group assume they understand other peoples opinionns, social political etc,better than the people themselves but they also believe their knowledge of their own views and opinions is superior. This leads to the assumtion, that knowing what they know, any reasonable person would agree with them.

We are seeing a lot of this now and I believe it applies more to left leaning social/political types than right leaning types. It's a rare occurance to witness the 'right' demonstating en masse in the West. Inevitably it will only get worse thanks to t'internet and social media.

regards

cajal

[chessie]

Never heard of that 'assy wotsit' before - explains a lot.

Many people are puzzled as to why the Spanish/Hispanics/Mexicans voted for Trump - total disbelief from some people I have chatted with - total disbelief .

Maybe these 'groups' regard themselves as Americans first, and they too, like the first and second generation immigrants in the UK, have also found themselves adversely affected by illegal immigration;  by the tarring of themselves, who are probably patriotic Americans working hard and paying taxes - and rather resent being lumped into the same group of illegals.   Those illegals are not welcomed by the patriotic American Hispanics ......

In the UK we've heard of the 'non-ethnic' first and second generation of immigrants who themselves are complaining about the 'numbers' - increased, unknown, and unplannable for - and like the white working class people have also seen their standards of living, communities disrupted by those who should not have been allowed in.

The ill-liberal left refused to listen;  we were told how to think, that any criticisms were 'rascist' and the bigotted left thought they knew best, and sneered at reasonable concerns.

Well, as you say, now the biter has been bit, and with the help of social media etc the little ordinarys are realising that many others feel as they do;  the ill-liberal lefties have got things so, so wrong - and revenge is coming their way.

How the Labour Party, which was founded to protect and support the ordinary working people, can possibly have supported the 'free movement of people', have supported mass, unplannable immigration - without a thought - or more importantly CARE - for their own kind - is utterly beyond me, and I regard it as one of the greatest betrayals of the ordinary working people of the UK.

It is the bigotted, ill-liberal 'we know best and care nothing for you' attitude which will lead, inevitably, to more and more POPULIST political leaders and movements.  (Populist - Voice of the People - remember that).

And the lefties have only themselves to blame - but it is the ordinary people, yet again (just like when wars break out) - the little Tommy Atkins who have suffered, and will suffer.

The ill-liberal, effete, traitors will escape untouched - as always.   But I have nothing but contempt for them, and their kind - and their 'social experiment' on other people.

Well done Trump;  he's not going to be dangerous - there's too many wise people around him to let him go on a rampage - he wouldn't be able to.   But Trump is definitely indication of a sea-change, a wind of change starting to blow through politics.   Look at the Clintons for heavens' sake - really look at them and their advisors; could anyone posting on here actually admit to wanting to vote for HC - really ?  Don't they remind anyone of the Kinnocks, the Blairs - and many other 'political families' who think they have the 'right' to become political families.

Give me strength.................

Chessie

[woolybanana]

And where would you put Obama on your list, Chessie? Not a blemish, personally, as far as I can see, yet his administration was harrassed right from the start by the radical Right even to the point of their trying to prove he was a Muslim and not born in America.

These are the little people you seem proud to be associated with.

As for Trump, well the advisors appointed so far are pretty extreme, being advocates of climate destruction, removal of women's rights, destruction of health care rights. The whole list is yet to come.

And, Chessie, you are wrong on one point: Brexit was xenophobic and racist. This observation should not be confused with and urge to control immigration.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="chessie"]Never heard of that 'assy wotsit' before - explains a lot.

Many people are puzzled as to why the Spanish/Hispanics/Mexicans voted for Trump - total disbelief from some people I have chatted with - total disbelief .[/quote]

Excellent summation, chessie. Thank you.

Might be because: 1. Trump employs all races and colours himself, rather than waxing loudly about racism, equality and the rest of the endless tripe:

And: .2. Researching and seeking some hard facts here and there over the weekend, it is clear the massive swing in the black states, was simply because they hoped Trump WILL provide actual jobs. as against streams of political polemic, brave words and empty hollow rhetoric.

[quote]Look at the Clintons for heavens' sake - really look at them and their advisors; could anyone posting on here actually admit to wanting to vote for HC - really ?  Don't they remind anyone of the Kinnocks, the Blairs - and many other 'political families' who think they have the 'right' to become political families.[/quote]

When Clinton came into the presidency, a grizzled old political commentator wrote "Seems we now have a blow-waved turkey in the White House!" He wasn't far wrong. Shortly after, the new presidency was described as the "Billary Clinton Presidency"!

Make no mistake, H R Clinton is one smart cookie; and it was her who did the thinking, manipulating and strategy. Bill was just simply her mouthpiece and the puppet to her strings.

In early 1997, I met Cherie Booth in Sir Gordon Borrie's chambers (eminent QC who had previously been Chief Exec of the Office of Fair Trading for some years.). I took a group of clients and my solicitor in, for a briefing and discussion. Serious Employment Law matter; unfair dismissal of a group.

She was much thinner then and actually rather waiflike and attractive.

Believe me, this woman was and remains as sharp as a whip!  Bliar was then in opposition. Cherie told us all the wondrous things they would do when "We're in power!".

And they didn't do any of 'em. Clearly again, NuLab was the Tone and Cherie show; with him, once more as the front man mouth and she as the thinker.

Interesting when HRC was constantly excoriating Trump, how the little matter of how the Billarys had managed to amass a fortune of in excess of $340 million.......was somehow forgotten.

[Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="woolybanana"]And where would you put Obama on your list, Chessie? Not a blemish, personally, as far as I can see, [/quote]

So nice of Obama to visit Britain and order us to vote remain wasn't it!

What did he actually achieve? Really?

 [quote]..........yet his administration was harrassed right from the start by the radical Right even to the point of their trying to prove he was a Muslim and not born in America.

These are the little people you seem proud to be associated with.[/quote]

Huh?

[8-)]

The Little People? The American GOP represents the little people? What are you smoking, Wooly? Is it nice!

The GOP represents first and foremost Big Capital, Big Biz and Big Oil et al.

The Little Guy is simply an embarrassing and annoying minor irritation, only to be pandered to at election time.

And is the dysfunctional connect and legitimate grievance that has caused precisely the groundswell of huge distrust and discontent, which has caused what you sneer at and call populism.

Remember perhaps the wise words of perhaps the greatest US president of all, Lincoln. Who said:

"You can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time. But you cannot fool ALL of the people, ALL of the time!"

Furthermore, perhaps it is time to remind ourselves of Lincoln's most famous speech of all, The Gettysburg Address; where he quoted the guiding ethic of the GOP.

"Government of the people; by the people and for the people!"

He did not say what we have today:

"Government of the people by the government; and for the sole good of the government; and their well-heeled chums."

[quote]As for Trump, well the advisors appointed so far are pretty extreme, being advocates of climate destruction, removal of women's rights, destruction of health care rights.[/quote]

Climate Change; oh, you've been sucked in by this scam and myth too, then. Read the late Michael Crichton's tour de force, "State of fear" and perhaps think again?

EDITED BY MODERATOR

Health Care; Well, if you were really following this, Wooly, then you would know Trump has already agreed to retain Obamacare but with certain sensible amendments.

[Cathar Tours]

Obviously UKIP or more to the point Farrage does not agree with LePen on this as he has said more than once.

State of Fear is fiction and not fact. If we were to believe that then we might as well believe "The da Vinci Code" in which case there would be thousands of Jesus's offspring roaming the world.

Climate change, global warming, well it's here, it's real and it's happening just look at today's newspapers. The only debate is has man caused it all, part or none of it but that's not what this thread is about and a totally irrelevant comment with regards to this thread.

It is certain that the UK will need the US and a trade deal with it for the future as it leaves the EU. The only thing is can it do a deal and will that deal be similar or the same as TTIP? If you want a quick deal it would make sense to use it as a draft as it is basically already written and virtually ready to go rather than wait several years for a new deal to be written.

As to the pro Trump supporters from non US countries, if you love him so much I suggest you move there.

There is some good news, supposing she keeps to her word, Katie Hopkins should be moving to the US very soon. I mean she did say if Trump won she would move there.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]

State of Fear is fiction and not fact. [/quote]

Agree but then so is the majority of "Climate Change" propaganda.

Your comment, sadly, Cathar Tours damned itself to perdition when you made the infamous statement, "Climate change, global warming, well it's here, it's real and it's happening just look at today's newspapers.".

(I was tempted - very - at this point to insert my favourite Roll On The Floor Laughing emoticon!)

The point of reading State of Fear (Remembering Crichton himself was a scientist), is the wealth of actual verified data; plus the central plank wherein a failing quasi-academic, creates a monument organisation based upon lies and fear and is earning far too much money and has far too much credibility to back down and admit he was and is wrong.

I could inundate you with credible scientific from leading real scientists, rather than the failed academics who created a new dodgy discipline called "Climate Change", however, clearly pretty pointless as you have already bought into the scam.

Comparing the clown Dan Brown to Crichton is an insult to the late man's memory.

You might, however, like to take a look through these webrefs. As always there are some nut jobs, however I wouldn't class Forbes Magazine that way?

here:

[Chancer]

Have you read "State of fear" Cathar?

 

Yes its fiction but a very good and thought provoking read.

 

Yes the story that the novel is written around is global warming but it could just as well be weapons of mass destruction or any mantra that is repeated enough that it sticks in peoples consciousness, there were some good comparisons with how the mentally ill, the depressed or illigitamate pregnancies were dealt with only a couple of générations ago.

 

Not taking issue with you on man made global warming or climate change or whatever todays mantra is but in the long term we are heading to the next ice age and possibly a mini ice age in 15 years time.

[Cathar Tours]

Firstly for Chancer, yes I read it years ago and a very good yarn it was to.

If you guys want to talk about Climate Change etc I really think you should start another thread because that's not what this one is about (by far).

Anyway I don't think we have much to worry about with LePen. Sure she will get to the second vote, that's a given, but she will be faced with Alain Juppe (hopefully and not Sarkozy) and the French will chose him as the lesser evil. It seems quite a few French political commentators favour this result.

Saying that so many polls have got so much wrong this year it does make you wonder. According to them the only person, should they ever get to the second round, that she can beat is Hollande. Sarkozy could beat her but Juppe would defiantly beat her therefore to remove risk the republicans would do best by letting Juppe run. Sarkozy has a 16% lead on LePen where as Juppe has a 36% lead.

[woolybanana]

Gluestick, you really do seem to be throwing your lolly out of the pram.

I found it quite reasonable that Obama came to UK to offer his opinion on the Brexit nonsense, the only sensible voice from outside the whole lying cheating mess, where barely a true word was spoken, particularly by Farage and his happy band of chancers.

You seem to have missed my message about the GOP; they dont represent anything any more except business and powerful minorities, for eg gun lobbies, nut religious bobbies, big pharma, big Monsanto and others. Not a nice bunch.

And I do hope you are not denying climate change, old chap, you are far too intelligent for that, aren't you? If not, let's all burn more coal and see what hapoens to our kids and grand kids.

Interesting that you compare the female of our species to out of control animals, copulating with all and sundry to produce unwanted babies. The ladies might beg to differ. And the Catholics

But then, I am sure you are joshing, big boy!

As for immigration, well, we all believe it should be controlled but UK needs them to do the jobs the English, Welsh and Scotch won't do or can't be ars ed to do.

[Cathar Tours]

Wooly wrote - "As for immigration, well, we all believe it should be controlled ..."

Funny really reading a couple of newspapers today. Seems none EU citizens will need to apply for a visa in advance, just like going to the US. The idea is primarily to reduce the possibility of terrorists entering the EU but also people with criminal records etc. entering. That coupled with the existing and soon to be enlarged Blue Card system means that the EU will have in place exactly what farrage and co said the UK should have. It will also remove part of LePen's argument as well.

Funny how The Guardian and The Daily Mail are singing off the same song sheet about this even though they try to make it look like it is aimed specifically at the UK which of course is utter rubbish, just headline grabbing.

I wondered as nobody has said anything if people here actually watched the interview with LePen?

[Russethouse]

Gluestick, I wonder what you actually base your comments about abortion on ?

Do you know people who behave as you suggest ?

The days have gone for most when abortion is a means of contraception....

Do you know others who may be victims of crime, or mothers who know they wouldn't be able to care for yet another child, or even those with a hereditary illness who choose not to pass it on ?

I find your remark in very poor taste. And I'm surprised you made it.

[lindal1000]

Isn't it always the way though Russethouse.. when the righteous get going their first port of call is women and their sexuality, Dictatorships always try and control women first. There sexuality must be on full show, as in the case of Melena Trump, but yet modest, and sexual activity is copious promiscuity for them and boys being boys for the men. Nothing changes.

Pence won't stop women seeking abortions. I shouldn't think Trump himself can say much himself given his freely admitted sexual past.

[Tancrède]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Do you know people who behave as you suggest ?[/quote]Naturally I know nothing of the experiences of Gluestick  -  though I find his posts stimulating and interesting.

But I have known the nurse who was responsible, week after week, for the 'oversight' (care is not exactly the right word, though she did her best) of viable fœtuses as they desperately tried make their escape from the kidney dish, before their ultimate disposal.

Not nice.  And not 'enlightened'.

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I find your remark in very poor taste.[/quote]Oh really ?

Have you ever heard of 'virtue signalling' ?