Brexit deal: the effects on British immigrants in France

[NormanH]

as  summarised in the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/08/brexit-divorce-deal-agreement-full-read-report-published-phase/

It look as if my carte de séjour will be be converted into the new

document:

those already holding a permanent residence document issued under Union

law at the specified date will have that document converted into the new

document free of charge, subject only to verification of identity, a

criminality and security check and confirmation of ongoing residence

as for healthcare

Rules for

healthcare, including the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme,

will follow Regulation (EC) No 883/2004. Persons whose competent state

is the UK and are in the EU27 on the specified date (and vice versa) –

whether on a temporary stay or resident – continue to be eligible for

healthcare reimbursement, including under the EHIC scheme, as long as

that stay, residence or treatment continues;

[woolybanana]

Does this imply that we have to have a carte de sejour which can then be converted into this new as yet uncreated document?

[AnOther]

Always remembering that nothing is a deal until it's ALL a deal, the implication seems to be that if you are not holding a CdS permanent on the appointed day then you will not get one.

On that basis I think we can predict a tsunami of applications which will utterly overwhelm the system.

Those who have been living under the radar will of course be royally stuffed.

[rock]

Oh dear. Does that mean the end of my retirement hopes? We bought a property 2 years age using it as a holiday home and are hoping to retire in 2 years time from now.

We haven't owned there long enough to apply for a carte de sejour and brexit took us by surprise.

Other than to sell up do we have any other options as we cant afford to maintain two homes when we retire?

[Gardian]

I understood it to say that the host nation may require confirmation of status. However ...... you’d say that any country is going to require that, otherwise how do you know that somebody is there legally or not + within the required timeframe?

It does also say that the host nation will “avoid unnecessary administration”. The French, bless ‘em, won’t be able to recognise the meaning of those words!

[EuroTrash]

As I read it, anyone exercising their right to freedom of movement on Brexit day will keep their rights in full. Brits residing in the EU will have to complete some kind of formality to get the necessary document, which is supposed to be quick and cheap, and they'll be given 2 years to do. If you already have a CDS you still have to exchange it for the new document. If you don't have a CDS you simply apply for the new document. So to me, applying for a CDS now and then applying to swap it, is slightly more hassle for no benefit, especially since you have two years from Brexit date to apply for the new document.

Brits who are not exercising freedom of movement at the Brexit cut off, are not covered by this treaty. So those wishing to move to the EU after that date would have no treaty rights to exercise, so would simply follow the procedures for non EU citizens.

Full report

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf

[AnOther]

I disagree.

The quote very clearly says "those already holding a permanent residence document" not those qualified to apply for one and not sure where you get the idea that applications made during a transition period would override that either.

[AnOther]

[quote user="AnOther"]I disagree.

The quote very clearly says "those already holding a permanent residence document" not those qualified to apply for one and not sure where you get the idea that applications made during a transition period would override that either.

[/quote]

Belay that, the text of the actual agreement:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/08/brexit-divorce-deal-agreement-full-read-report-published-phase/

Administrative procedures for applications for status will be transparent, smooth and streamlined,2 in particular:

1. The Withdrawal Agreement will specify that the host State cannot
   require anything more than is strictly necessary and proportionate to
   determine whether the criteria have been met. The Withdrawal Agreement
   will contain provisions that follow a similar approach to the provisions
   on evidential requirements in Directive 2004/38;
2. The host State will avoid any unnecessary administrative burdens;
3. Application forms will be short, simple, user friendly and adjusted
   to the context of the Withdrawal Agreement. The host State will work
   with the applicants to help them prove their eligibility under the
   Withdrawal Agreement and to avoid any errors or omissions that may
   impact on the application decision. Competent authorities will give
   applicants the opportunity to furnish supplementary evidence or remedy
   any deficiencies where it appears a simple omission has taken place. A
   principle of evidential flexibility will apply, enabling competent
   authorities to exercise discretion in favour of the applicant where
   appropriate;
4.  proportionate approach will be taken to those who miss the deadline
   for application where there is a good reason. Applications made by
   families at the same time will be considered together;
5. and where an application is required to obtain status, adequate time
   of at least two years will be allowed to persons within the scope of
   the Withdrawal Agreement to submit their applications. During this time
   period, they will enjoy the rights conferred by the Withdrawal
   Agreement. Residence documents under the Withdrawal Agreement will be
   issued free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on
   nationals for the issuing of similar documents;

[EuroTrash]

Exactly.

The only special point it's making about people who already hold cds, is that they won't have to go through the new application procedure since they've already done it to get their cds. Post Brexit, they simply swap their superseded cds for the new one.

What would point 3 be all about, if all anyone had to do was go along and swap one card for another? Seems pretty obvious that point 3 refers to people who don't have a cds to swap, and need to establish that they're exercising treaty rights as part of the application for new residence permit.

Likewise 5 states that persons within the scope of the WA - ie everyone who is exercising their treaty rights at Brexit point - have at least two years to submit their application.

It's all good, it's what Barnier et al have been saying all along.

[woolybanana]

Guys, let us remember that the document covers all member states of the EU which have different requirements for residence, not just France. Some require residence papers, some do not etc. My bet is that the French will not want to cause any more hassle than they have to and will in any case let us know what is required.

This would be over three years down the line, the thing has not been signed yet and Molly Malone has not yet wheeled her load of carrots to Bobo for sampling!

All will be revealed in time.

The one good thing is that those living below the wire might finally be flushed out!

[andyh4]

Rockfish wrote:

Oh dear. Does that mean the end of my retirement hopes? We bought a property 2 years age using it as a holiday home and are hoping to retire in 2 years time from now.

We haven't owned there long enough to apply for a carte de sejour and brexit took us by surprise.

Other than to sell up do we have any other options as we cant afford to maintain two homes when we retire?

End of a dream? Not necessarily. Lots of non-EU citizens live in France. The requirements on you may however be more stringent. You may have to prove minimum income and access to healthcare rather than today where it is just taken as a given (even when it is not).

I suggest a search (probably not on this site due to the rubbish search donkey - modern systems have upgraded to engines) for requirements of an American to live in France.

[BritinBretagne]

Owning a holiday home in France would not have qualified you for a CdS Permanent (EU) as they are based on residency of at least five years. Second home ownership and residency ar3 two completely different things.

[lindal1000]

At the moment none of it is ring fenced anyway..so if ultimately the UK walks away whatever is agreed means nothing. It also has not been voted on by the European Parliament yet. If you want to see what all this means at the moment then look at the RIFT website or "Britain in Europe'. Alternatively if want to argue amongst yourselves about your interpretation the continue here. :)

[rock]

[quote user="andyh4"]

End of a dream? Not necessarily. Lots of non-EU citizens live in France. The requirements on you may however be more stringent. You may have to prove minimum income and access to healthcare rather than today where it is just taken as a given (even when it is not).

I suggest a search (probably not on this site due to the rubbish search donkey - modern systems have upgraded to engines) for 4requirements of an American to live in France.[/quote]

Thanks Andy, that is pretty much what I assumed, but if we are retired the healthcare is a worry.

It's still a case of wait and see.

[rock]

[quote user="BritinBretagne"]Owning a holiday home in France would not have qualified you for a CdS Permanent (EU) as they are based on residency of at least five years. Second home ownership and residency ar3 two completely different things.[/quote]

I thought that was what I said, but maybe not. Thanks anyway.

[rock]

I was hoping that the statement saying :

"UK nationals who in accordance with Union law legally reside in an EU27 Member State by the specified date, as well as their family members as defined by Directive 2004/38/EC who are legally resident in the host State by the specified date, fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement ..."

May let the likes of me squeeze in without a cds if I was then resident. We'll see.

[alittlebitfrench]

I don't know why Norman keeps going on and on about the CDS.

Forget the CDS, it means nothing. It is just an identity card. Its a form of identity to sign cheques with. It has no real use apart from that.

Rockfish, you will be fine.

Chill everyone.

[rock]

Thanks albf, I live in hope you might be right.

Actually before even the borders came down we lived in France, even had a son who has a French birth certificate but never claimed nationality.

Been there, done that, bought the teeshirt but want to end my days back there.

Oh and by the way our perception is that apart from trams in the bigger cities and more grafitti everywhere than we remember not much has changed since the mid 90’s when we left. But that is probably for another thread.

[andyh4]

Rockfish wrote:

if we are retired the healthcare is a worry.

The UK has and had a number of reciprocal healthcare agreements with countries outside of the EEA - for example many parts of the former Yugoslavia.

It is not without possibility that post Brexit there will be reciprocal agreements with the EU27.

Aa ALBF suggests do not worry too much at this stage.

[EuroTrash]

I'm with ALBF on this. Having a cds is not obligatory, so whether or not you happen to have one prior to Brexit makes not a jot of difference to your status. What I think will be important is that you can prove you meet the criteria applicable to your status, eg if you say you're exercising your rights as a worker you have a genuine job or business in France, if you say you're exercising your rights as an inactif you can show you meet the income criteria etc. That's basically what legal residence means, and the easiest way to demonstrate it is through your French tax returns, which as a resident you will by definition have submitted each year.

All things being equal I think that realistically the very latest you could get away with moving would be 3 months before Brexit, Rockfish, because you need to show you've been here continuously for at least 3 months before you are considered a new resident. For the first 3 months you are regarded as a visitor.

[AnOther]

Quoting again from the actual agreement document (my bold):

"The overall objective of the Withdrawal Agreement with respect to citizens' rights is to provide reciprocal protection for Union and UK citizens, to enable the effective exercise of rights derived from Union law and based on past life choices, where those citizens have exercised free movement rights by the specified date.

To date, both Parties have reached a common understanding on the following.

The specified date should be the time of the UK's withdrawal."

With terms like those bolded the only logical interpretation has to be that you must be in a qualifying position - i.e. 5 years residency - on the specified date, not just moved.

Even if you moved tomorrow and the specified date were the end of the suggested two year transition period and not March 2019 you'd still only have around 3.5years in not have the 5 years required for a CdS permanent.

[woolybanana]

rockfish, didn't you say one of your kids was born in France; does that mean he is a French national by birth? If so, under the proposals just announced you have a right to come here, don't you?

[AnOther]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]you need to show you've been here continuously for at least 3 months before you are considered a new resident[/quote]You're talking about current rules not post Brexit after which UK citizens become foreigners and subject to the same rules which cover them.

 

To suggest otherwise makes it tantamont to free movement which we know will come to an end with Brexit.

You're right about the intrinsic value of a CdS however at the same time there is no possible downside to obtaining one and even if it does nothing more than jump the queues of late applicants who will surely throng and overwhelm just about every prefecture in the land it will be well worth the relatively small amount of effort needed which you're going to have to do at some time anyhow.

[alittlebitfrench]

What exactly is a CDS permanent AnOther ?

Please everyone, do not go to your local prefecture and annoy them trying to apply for a CDS. You will pîss them off.

And besides, it is a pointless plasticky thing that does not fit in your wallet.

[EuroTrash]

Exactly, An0. The right to START exercising freedom of movement comes to an end with Brexit. Until Brexit, Brits are EU citizens and have the right to exercise free movement. It's not only tantamount to free movement, it is free movement, right up to Brexit. Come Brexit, a snapshot is taken and those who are exercising free movement in the UK/the EU at that point in time, have the right to carry on doing so, because assuming everything is ratified they will be the specific group that's covered by the terms of this agreement. Those that aren't exercising freedom of movement at that point, will never be able to, because they lose those rights at Brexit.