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Remain an EU citizen after brexit


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"The European Commission has allowed a group to launch a petition calling for permanent EU citizenship after Brexit."

The petition has opened today. You can sign up at https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative

Sorry I can't seem to post a clickable link.

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If I enter UK as the state of which I am a national, and enter "No" to whether I am resident, I am told:
"In accordance with Annex III – Part C of Regulation (EU) No 211/2011 on

the citizens' initiative, only residents in the United Kingdom can use

this form. UK nationals living in another member state should if

possible use the form provided for that member state."

But to use the form for France is only possible if one has a Passport or DNI issued in France, which I'm pretty sure only French nationals will have..

The system doesn't accept the number of my French Titre de Sejour.

I suppose that's why it says "if possible" above.

Another Catch 22.

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Thanks Andy. Why didn't I think of that?

I just jumped to the conclusion that when I was asked to to provide "one of the following personal identification document numbers issued by France", that that was what they actually required[:D]

We'll try again tomorrow.

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[quote user="nomoss"]Another Catch 22.[/quote]

Naturally.

But surely it was nice gesture on the part of the European Commission to have 'allowed' such a petition?

I have to admit to finding the wording of the original announcement peculiarly revealing and distasteful.

In the country in which I grew up  -  a representative, participatory, and mature democracy, with a 'grass-roots-up' legal system   -  popular petitions, liked and disliked, pleasing and uncomfortable had been launched by the will of the people since the C17th and even before, without any question of requiring 'permission'. 

In that country it would have been laughable and impertinent for a government (let alone an unelected and unrepresentative 'commission') to pretend to have the authority to 'allow' or 'disallow' such a basic expression of freedom of speech on the part of the governed.

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The UK government has no compunction in disallowing those citizens  who have been living in Europe for over 15 years from  voting. Surely the right to vote is a "a basic expression of freedom", especially in something such as the referendum which concerned them so directly.

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[quote user="NormanH"]The UK government has no compunction in disallowing those citizens  who have been living in Europe for over 15 years from  voting. Surely the right to vote is a "a basic expression of freedom", especially in something such as the referendum which concerned them so directly.

[/quote]

And can you vote in your chosen country that you now live in despite paying taxes and being resident in that country? Perhaps you should vent your anger towards the French govermment. Why would you have an interest, in having voting rights in a country you have left? Unless you want the best of both worlds.
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But that Fred is backwards thinking.

Throughout the world you vote for the country of your nationality, not the country of your residence.

The EU permits EU nationals to vote in local elections and for an MEP in their country of residence - but not for national elections.
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"Perhaps you should vent your anger towards the French govermment"

It is not the French government that has disenfranchised British citizens (who in my case still pay taxes in Britain)

Votig rights are not a question of residence they are an  integral part of nationality which I have not given up.

The French government understands this and its nationals abroad do not lose their voting rights; there is even a MP specifically for these citizens, so why should I feel anger towards the French on this issue?

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[quote user="andyh4"]Put in your UK passport number.

The system will tell you there are errors - passeport invalid format, but it will allow you to proceed by clicking a button on the bottom that says the "errors" are in fact correct.[/quote]

Well, that worked for my signing just now, but won't accept my wife's effort to do so.

It insists her PP no. is wrong, but the "ignore" window doesn't appear.

My signature details appear at the top of the page, so their system knows I've already signed, but doesn't seem to allow two people to sign from the same computer.

I'd delete their cookies, but FF doesn't list any which correspond to their handle.

I might try tomorrow from the laptop or another browser, but don't have much faith in a system that can't even make signing a petition work easily and smoothly[:(]

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I cannot speak for Norman, but the law has changed several times in terms of if and when you lost your right to vote.

In my case I was not aware, but then I left the UK on a 3 year contract - a contract that kept getting extended until I was offered a permanent placement. By this time return to the UK was a less obvious option because the UK unit had closed.

Voting rights will not always be the number one priority when making life choices, but nevertheless removing a basic right because of where you live cannot be condoned.
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It was but the Tories promised to change  it:

of course this was  a lie

The point is that unjust laws  are not written in stone, they can be changed, so whether or not the 15 year rule was in place when I changed my geographical location (not my Nationality)  is irrelevant to my argument.

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[quote user="nomoss"]
[quote user="andyh4"]Put in your UK passport number.

The system will tell you there are errors - passeport invalid format, but it will allow you to proceed by clicking a button on the bottom that says the "errors" are in fact correct.[/quote]

Well, that worked for my signing just now, but won't accept my wife's effort to do so.

It insists her PP no. is wrong, but the "ignore" window doesn't appear.

My signature details appear at the top of the page, so their system knows I've already signed, but doesn't seem to allow two people to sign from the same computer.

I'd delete their cookies, but FF doesn't list any which correspond to their handle.

I might try tomorrow from the laptop or another browser, but don't have much faith in a system that can't even make signing a petition work easily and smoothly[:(]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just signed for my wife on the laptop.

Surprisingly, the details of my signing yesterday appeared at the top of the screen, but the "ignore" box appeared, and the signing was accepted after ticking it.

Now I don't understand how my details appeared on another computer - maybe the router is identified?

Or do "they" know more than I realised?

[/quote]
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I think the significant part of your answer is the first two words.

And "Political party fails to keep election promise shock!!" Did labour/Lib dem ever raise it as an option? And pursue it?

Personally I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a significant part of the voting age population ( is it 1.2million just living in Europe) being able to impact what goes on on my doorstep, to my family. I understand your desire to vote and generate influence - I feel the desire in France, where I can't vote - but I am not convinced its the correct option.

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I understand and to a degree share your disquiet, but nationality is an absolute (although you might have more than one), whereas residency is very fluid and can change year on year. OH was at one time tax resident in 3 EU countries at the same time.

I think this is why the world adopts nationality - except the UK if you have the temerity to live somewhere else.

On the basis of influence on a country where you do not live:

Many of my family still live in the UK. I still care for them - in some cases financially.

My State pension still comes from the UK

Its value to me is determined by exchange rates that are dictated by political policies - as well as other income streams.

My status in Europe has been disturbed by a referendum where I had no chance to influence the decision. So am I within my rights to reject that decision? Now there is a can of worms to be opened.

If I had a choice I would decide to vote in France but the rules do not allow that - despite all of the comments above. So as of now I am disenfranchised since the next local and MEP elections will be post 03/19.

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Its a well argued set of points Andy ,and clarifies some points I hadn't considered, but....

Ultimately my initial point still rests, the choices were made in light of rules and laws that were in place at the time. The benefits were judged to outlay the risks on that basis.

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Agree Andy - nationality is so important and allows so many more Rights depending on the country.

The girlfriend/OH of one of our sons is Estonian (EU) and they both have no intention of working in UK basically due to the effect of Brexit on academia, Estonia has the rule that one cannot have dual nationality. Whilst I can see the argument against dual nationality (allegiance etc) it really sugars them for obvious reasons.

Another nationality issue is that of Israel. Lots of dual nationality people but Palestinian people (called Arabs there) living for generations in what is called real Israel can only have citizenship. What a bizarre world.

NB His girlfriend has had quite horrific racial abuse whilst she has been in the UK because she has a slight accent - another example of the endemic racism well demonstrated by recent posts on a thread on this forum - and some will not dream that they are being racist..

NB2 if your nationals were being abused in a country would you be giving them a good deal?

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The difference between Yonner's view of nationality and mine is rather like the difference between the UK and France:
In France the people are citizens of Republic and have the right to retain their nationality and their vote wherever they live

In the UK the people are subjects of the Queen, and apparently after 15 years the right to vote (a basic feature of nationality) is dependent  on owning a house (and thus an address) there.

To be clear this apparently digression is in response to Tancrède's post above:

In that country it would have been laughable and impertinent for a

government (let alone an unelected and unrepresentative 'commission') to

pretend to have the authority to 'allow' or 'disallow' such a basic

expression of freedom of speech on the part of the governed.

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