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marks out of 10 please for......


mint
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[quote user="mint"]

When you think what Greece managed to get for their country when they were on their uppers and were bankrupt and took only a begging bowl with them..........[:P]

[/quote]

You think Greece got a good deal ? I suggest you look again. They were well and truly kippered. Which is exactly what they have done to Camermoron

 

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What I'd like to understand is what, exactly, people expect (or expected) him to achieve.

If he were to get all he asked for, would you be satisfied?

If he doesn't, are there aspects that you feel he would be justified in compromising on?

Is there someone else you think could/would have done better? Is there something else he should have asked for?

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I think the statement made by MP Jacob Rees-Mogg in PMQ’s a couple of

weeks back,  which went somewhere along the lines of ‘it would appear that the

thin gruel that the prime minister is asking for is to be watered down even

further’

sums up this whole sorry mess nicely.

 

Of course Angela wants to keep the UK in the EU, cos, lets face it without

the UK, Germany would have to finance the whole sorry lot themselves. I can

understand why most of the rest of Europe could not care less if the UK leave,

after all we always beat them at wars, and people in the UK have a higher

standard of living, as after all work pays in the UK, unlike France where it, and

making money are almost a criminal offence.
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I had no doubts that this would happen. 

Sadly, Cameron to me is as much of a wimp as Hollande. I had no expectation that he would go in asking for next to nothing and getting less!

How our PM has not got more clout is a reflextion on him.

EVEN IF this did not need negociating, then the whole thing needs an overhaul anyway. But they don't/won't do it. My own opinion is that the EMP's and eurocrats fear their trough will be diminshed......... and that will never do.

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]What I'd like to understand is what, exactly, people expect (or expected) him to achieve.

If he were to get all he asked for, would you be satisfied?

If he doesn't, are there aspects that you feel he would be justified in compromising on?

Is there someone else you think could/would have done better? Is there something else he should have asked for?[/quote]

Exactly Betty. Everyone lining up in the media to take a swipe at whatever the negotiations end up with are very quiet about what they would have asked for/done etc. And none of them suggest they would have been successful if they tried. There are people who would not agree with anything, such is their desire to leave the EU.
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So exactly what is so bloody brilliant about the whole thing is being run now???

Trouble is that it is Greece, it is as good at handling funds as the greekswere, the difference being that the funds in the EU's coffers are always shored up and they shouldn't be.

Could have spit at my tv this morning, as I had been talking to a young woman at hospital who needs drugs that they won't pay for and yet, the powers that be have chairs to sit on that would pay for her drugs for some considerable time. White leather, haut de gamme....you wouldn't use plastics with such expensive designs, must have costs thousands of € each and there were lots. Yes, spit, I felt like it.

WHAT DO I WANT, accountablility for the people of the EU's money. Common sense. Money not squandered or wasted. Expenses kept to a reasonable amount. More common sense. And as we are not the US of Europe, then accept that each country should have it's own way of dealing with many things, no matter they be good or bad, it is up to the people of 'that' country to decide if they want things changing, not EU bureaucrats. We all apparently live in democracies, although the way some of these eastern european countries are going, that idea is not going to last long!

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Doubtless there'll be an agreement and then there'll be the predictable howls of protest from the Brexit camp on how little has been gained.

What interests me is when the 'Stay In' camp are going to get their act together and appoint a serious political heavyweight to lead what could be a very short and nasty campaign.

What about Ken Clarke? A passionate 'European', quite popular with the public, brusque / tells it the way it is. Hardly in the first flush of youth, but for a short run-in to a referendum ........... .......... ?
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The "Stay In" campaign constantly argue that we should remain in this awful club and work for reform from within. The difficulty Cameron seems to be having in moving even these modest proposals moving forward just indicate (to me at least) that these clowns have no intention of changing and only want to move towards even closer integration.... Not for me thank you.

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Reading this thread confirms my opinion that the UK voters can be split into three groups; those who want out regardless of any deal agreed, those who want to stay in even on the present terms and those who are waiting to see what emerges before making up their minds.

It is easy to criticise Cameron for his negotiating skills but it we must remember that he is dealing with people who need to keep their own electorate happy and who do not want to be seen to be giving in to the UK. To his credit he is not capitulating the way Margaret Thatcher did when she signed up to Single European Act in 1986. This was surely the biggest transfer of sovereignty in any of the treaties over the years.

For those who are still undecided it would be helpful if the Brexit side could give an honest description of what will happen if they get their way.

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One of the contributors on tonight's "The News Quiz" on radio 4 captured the dilemma quite nicely for me this evening.

To paraphrase in slightly less amusing terms than he put it: if I vote to stay in, I'm making Cameron happy, if I vote to leave, I'm making Farage happy.

That's not really an easy choice, all other considerations aside.

😀😀
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Well, if there's one tiny thing that has made me smile this morning, it's that, according to the BBC website, the fact that EU migrants will be prevented from claiming child benefit payments for children back home (no doubt put into the mix to mollify Mail readers and UKIP) is hardly going to score any points with anyone except the groups mentioned, or make a fundamental economic difference. Apparently, this affects a simply MASSIVE 37000 current claimants..who won't lose the benefits anyway, but have them progressively indexed. Which, out of a current population of, what, 65 million? will represent a gargantuan saving. Not.

That's not a criticism of Cameron, BTW (yes, I really did say that) but a criticism of the pressures he's succumbed to from NIMBY-ist middle Englanders who are so obsessed with the minutiae of lazy journalistic sensationalism that they have managed to make it about their own misguided beliefs rather than the important issues.
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Sorry. I'm grumpy today. I've just realised that it's months and months since I saw or heard Nigel Farage, and I was enjoying that. Now, I suspect I'll have him forced into my field of vision daily till at least mid-June and potentially beyond. *sigh*
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Betty wrote,

 

Well, if there's one tiny thing that has made

me smile this morning, it's that, according to the BBC website, the fact that EU

migrants will be prevented from claiming child benefit payments for children

back home (no doubt put into the mix to mollify Mail readers and UKIP) is hardly

going to score any points with anyone except the groups mentioned, or make a

fundamental economic difference. Apparently, this affects a simply MASSIVE 37000

current claimants..who won't lose the benefits anyway, but have them

progressively indexed. Which, out of a current population of, what, 65 million?

will represent a gargantuan saving. Not.

That's not a criticism of Cameron,

BTW (yes, I really did say that) but a criticism of the pressures he's succumbed

to from NIMBY-ist middle Englanders who are so obsessed with the minutiae of

lazy journalistic sensationalism that they have managed to make it about their

own misguided beliefs rather than the important issues.

 

 

 

 

You are right Betty, it will save this country FA.   DC is crowing like

this ‘re-negotiation’ is a big deal he has pulled off.  To be honest, whatever

he came back with, would have not been enough for me personally, I was always

for leaving whatever concessions he achieved, and he has archived none of any

worth what so ever.

 

We all have Nigel to thank for getting us this referendum though.  Without

his stellar leadership there is no way UKIP would have enjoyed the success it

has. In 2014 UKIP won the EU elections convincingly in the UK.

 

Fear of all those true blue conservative voters, abandoning Dave for Nigel,

clearly shook him up big time.  With the 2015 elections looming Dave’s think

tank came up with the idea, that they were the only party in the UK who could

give the people a referendum, so they made it a pledge to offer this if they

were elected.

 

Dave had laid his card on the table now, and many UKIP voters agreed, that

he was the only party likely of taking power who could deliver this. ( as much

as I love Nigel, I would not have bet my last £1 on him beating Dave, whatever

the odds)

 

But as it turned out, Dave really did not have to play the referendum card,

the very thought of Ed and Nicola taking power at the very last minute made sure

he would win, as such a prospect of labour and the SNP running the shop was too

much and Dave had a sweeping victory.

 

But now of course, Dave was stuffed, he had made a pledge and he had to

stick to this one, then he realised he would get nothing from the EU in real

change, so has to make the crumbs from the table he managed to sweep up look

like its a real victory for him.

 

Now all those UKIP voters who turned out in 2015 ( approx. 4 million) can

unite with all the conservatives and of course all those ‘nimby ist middle

Englanders’  ( of which there are millions) and hopefully we may now end this

sorry part of the UK’s history and get out of the EU. 

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Hoddy wrote,

I was leaning towards an 'out' vote. I then realised that the chief

proponents of an out vote are Farage, Galloway and Gove. I think I have

some serious re-thinking to do.

I would have thought that most people would have known that Farage was for the leave EU side, he has mentioned it once or twice, ask Betty.

Please keep up at the back. [8-|]

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 I think that I get rather sick of this silly argument about saving a bit of money making FA difference.

At home, it always does.

And remember this govt, IDS's DWP, has had absolutely no qualms about venomously attacking those poorest in society and doing little for the indigenous population that needs help, because plenty of people do. And yet, apparently money going abroad is considered OK, well not by me.

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[quote user="idun"] I think that I get rather sick of this silly argument about saving a bit of money making FA difference.

At home, it always does.

And remember this govt, IDS's DWP, has had absolutely no qualms about venomously attacking those poorest in society and doing little for the indigenous population that needs help, because plenty of people do. And yet, apparently money going abroad is considered OK, well not by me.

[/quote]For once in this debate I agree with Idun about benefits being sent abroad and the way this government has leant on the poorest in order to boost the wealthy. Let us not forget that in-work benefits are a subsidy for the employer not for the employee. It seems reasonable to me that anybody working a full week should be be paid enough to support themselves and not need a top-up from the government.

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I think the 'in or out' vote is interesting because it isn't particularly party political. I have friends who many here would describe as 'lefties' in the extreme, and they will be voting to leave. To me, most people who say they are going to vote out, I would place at the more extreme ends of both parties. The middle ground, seem on the whole to be either for staying in or undecided. I asked my left wing friend what he would see happening to the Uk in the event of an exit and he was in favour of building an alliance with Russia and Putin.

I think the question is have the negotiations and the deal been enough to convince the undecided. I read something that was posted in another place, that in the event of a country wishing to leave the EU the details of the exit have to be agreed and decided within 2 years.
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I am so profoundly depressed by the antics of the clown Cameron that I have been unable as yet to look at the details of the marvelous concessions that he has managed to wrestle out of the EU.

Plus, I have been out everyday walking in the countryside to stop myself following all the twists and turns as reported on the media.

I think I still have a vote but won't know until I contact the council of our last place of residence.  We didn't vote at the last 2 general elections, couldn't bear to as couldn't support anybody, so will need to establish whether we are still on the electoral role.

Anyway, I am declaring myself UNDECIDED at the present time[:'(]

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I suppose it depends what you were hoping it would say Mint. The key things as far as I can see are that Britain will not have to be part of the move towards federalism and that it can keep it's currency and that will be a recognised second currency in the EU. There are certain protections for the city of London financial sector which I don't quite get and an agreement to a benefit freeze for people coming from other EU countries.

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◾an "emergency brake" on migrants' in-work benefits for their first four years in a new country when there are "exceptional" levels of migration. The UK will be able to operate the brake for seven years

◾child benefit for the children of EU migrants living overseas will now be paid at a rate based on the cost of living in their home country - applicable immediately for new arrivals and from 2020 for the 34,000 existing claimants

◾The amending of EU treaties to state explicitly that references to the requirement to seek ever-closer union "do not apply to the United Kingdom", meaning Britain "can never be forced into political integration"

◾The ability for the UK to enact "an emergency safeguard" to protect the City of London, to stop UK firms being forced to relocate into Europe and to ensure British businesses do not face "discrimination" for being outside the eurozone

There you are Mint.. the BBC summarised it better than me..and the referendum is on the 23rd June
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