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No 'as you were' in Spain and Europe?


woolybanana
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Well, if the Spanish government wanted to win hearts and minds in Catalonia they have gone about it the right way; police attacking schools, voting booths and the public. I don't see how Spain will settle down to the status quo ever again.

And what might the implications be for Europe - surely they cannot condone what has happened, cannot support the violent attempt to maintain a nation state when it is the power of same that they wish to diminish.
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Wooly, we’ve been out all day from early morning, so didn’t know what had happened about the referendum. It’s just so shocking; it obviously wasn’t going to turn out well, but 465 people injured in attacks by the police is beyond belief.

We spent last evening with friends, who spoke to us about the history of Catalonia and Spain and dreadful events in the past. It seems impossible that people in Catalonia could just pick up

their lives and carry on as before.

How will the EU react, they surely can’t ignore it, it happened, with cameras recording it all.
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In a survey in Le Figaro (right wing) only 53% condemned the violence which is either surprising or, in the light of Norman's last post (above), unsurprising.

How is it possible to let loose riot police in what is a civil matter? Surely they created the violence by their presence and actions. Yet still there has been no condemnation from EU members or Brussels. A sign of things to come?
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And remember there are three very right wing governments in the EU at the moment, and maybe more to come, even Germany now has a presence in it's parliament.

So IF the EU is going to make a statement to represent it's members...... just which members are going to be represented?

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I had a bare 2 hours sleep last night, having watched the tv till well past midnight, hoping for someone senior in the political world to come on air and condemn the police (read state) violence in Catalonia against fellow citizens.

This was wrong on so many levels and leave many questions unanswered.  On a basic level, for example, who gave the national police the powers of sending in those strong-armed, unscrupulous thugs with covered faces and black clad armour?  And who told them they could lay into crowds of ordinary, unarmed citizens with such shocking brutality and insensitivity?

They were a scary-sight!  If this were state-condoned violence, then there is no hope whatsoever for all of us.  When basic humanity goes out of the window, it makes me wonder at how thin our veneer of civilisation actually is.

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From my viewpoint, my horror IS for all state endorsed violence.  I made no mention in my post as to whether this is in Europe or elsewhere.

But you are right to point out that this is near home.  But, that is a function of the people who set news agendas.  If 2 people were killed on the M4, it makes the headlines.  If 100 people get killed because of a train derailment in Chenai, it will be lucky to make a few lines.

That is how most people assess the news, whether it's "relevant" to their lives.  It's no, as far as that goes, any sort of dishonour to be more concerned about what is taking place near your home where there is the possibility of you or your family being victims.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

Hard to find fault in anything he said, that will be hard to swallow for some.

[/quote]

+1, and he made me rethink my feelings about Brexit, so thanks, Nigel!

From my original position favouring leaving for so many logical reasons, I was frightened by the repercussions of the yes vote into wanting to maintain the status quo for a nice easy life for myself, but I can now see what we can expect from the EU in the future.

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I was ambivalent and disinterested no longer living in the UK, I have watched it unfold with interest, I better understand some of the extreme reactions of those who like you wanted to maintain the status quo and were I to be staying in France I probably would have fallen into that camp but not lost sight of the fact that it was me being selfish for myself and not pretending my concern was for the UK résidents.

 

I dont intend returning to the UK or only temporarily dependant on how things pan out but from what I have seen and learned since the referendum I thnk that they are right to become independant of the EU.

 

I admire your honesty Nomoss, it doesn't have to be public, the important thing is to be honest with oneself.

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I think the fairies must have been in the night and put my brain in back to front. I've been waiting for widespread and universal condemnation of the behaviour of the Spanish police and it hasn't't appeared. Then I find myself agreeing Nigel Farage.

I take comfort from the fact that Wooly has been in Lalaland longer than I have if he really believes that the miners generated all the violence in the miner's strike.
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Hoody, that was not the point; I mentioned that the Spanish police had been brought in to enforce what was a civil matter; Norman replied that that was the case in the miner's strike to which I replied that it was a criminal matter. No mention was made of violence or not by the police in the latter case.

I am sure that you are right about some of the violence being generated by miners, some by police but you forget that much was also generated by flying pickets who had as much to with with miners as constipated hippofrifs.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Hoody, that was not the point; I mentioned that the Spanish police had been brought in to enforce what was a civil matter; Norman replied that that was the case in the miner's strike to which I replied that it was a criminal matter. No mention was made of violence or not by the police in the latter case.

I am sure that you are right about some of the violence being generated by miners, some by police but you forget that much was also generated by flying pickets who had as much to with with miners as constipated hippofrifs.[/quote]

Whether or not you regard the Catalan referendum as a civil matter, it was a criminal matter according to Spanish laws on the indivisibility of the country.

The police were enforcing a convenient law made in Madrid, in the same way that the UK police enforced a convenient law made in London.

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I forget very little about the miner’s strike, but I really don’t want to go down that side alley. It is difficult to draw the line between the civil and the criminal in some instances.

For example, a vicar friend of mine taking items like disposable nappies, formula milk and baby food collected in his parish to a mining community which was desperately short of everything, was not allowed to leave the M1. He expressed himself forcefully on the subject and was threatened by the police. I’m not sure if he was in breach of the criminal law or some hastily introduced civil offence. Perhaps the fact that he had an accent rather like Dennis Skinner made the ‘offcomer’ policemen think that he was a troublemaker and that his dog collar was a disguise. Whatever the case it was made perfectly clear to him that if he really tried to proceed he would be forcibly stopped.

Back to the original subject - I am deeply shocked to see ordinary Europeans being dragged out of a crowd and thrown to the ground, men, women, young and old; over eight hundred of them. There is no way that that is not an absolute disgrace.
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[quote user="Hoddy"]  I am deeply shocked to see ordinary Europeans being dragged out of a crowd and thrown to the ground, men, women, young and old; over eight hundred of them. There is no way that that is not an absolute disgrace.[/quote]

Unfortunately, that is the way Spanish law enforcement officers tend to behave in a crisis.

They are generally young, poorly educated, have poor leadership, and are made to serve far from their native towns - a practice to theoretically make them less prone to bribery and corruption.

As a result, when they find themselves in a situation like that during the referendum they are frightened, and act out of fear and panic because they are unable to deal with it, their training having been based on severely imposed routine and threats.

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Nomoss if it is the case that they are badly trained and so on then that is entirely the responsibility of the Spanish government.

If I just found myself disagreeing with the Spanish government I wouldn’t have such a sense of outrage about what happened. What I expected, foolishly as I now see, was that the other EU states would condemn the violence. If they have done so I have missed it.
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