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To friends living in the UK, this merits reading


mint
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[url]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/08/the-guardian-view-on-easing-lockdown-boris-johnson-is-seeing-polls-not-science[/url]

I am NOT making a political point with posting this.  At least, not this time[:P]  If I were still living in the UK, I'd be grateful if someone pointed this article out to me.

Just take care everyone and follow your own counsel.

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mint, thanks for posting that.

I'll tell you what I think about all this.

Firstly, that the world is a very different place for retirees, often without mortgages, and we, OH and I, have decided to treat this new world with caution and follow steps that are as practical as possible for us. And friends are the same, other 3eme age folk.

We are lucky,  younger folks with huge bills to pay, rent or mortgages and kids to bring up need to work. No government can prop them up for ever.

Is Boris following the polls is that the right expression, or following the 'people' the mood of the people and one can say it is polls, but it just feels like the mood of the people around here.  For all help has been given to many, not all were eligible, and some folk are quite desperate now to get back to earning their living.

I cannot knock Boris really. I am just glad that it was not me having to decide what to do.

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Id, I know that you are nothing if not sensible and you will not take unnecessary risks.

Wools, rightly or wrongly, and I was just talking about this to OH this afternoon, I just KNOW that if we were still in our previous place of abode in the UK, I would be a lot more uneasy about things than I am here.  And that's got nothing to do with whether Macron is managing this better than Boris or any of the rest of it.  It is a physical fact that we are here with fewer people, fewer of everything and I have very little in the way of fear.

Strangely enough, OH, who is usually a lot more carefree than I am, is now fussing about (fussing about in my opinion) and wanting to wash all shopping, keeps sanitising his hands, the car, etc etc.  Either I have a death wish, too idle to do all this stuff or maybe, having weighed the risks, have decided that the risks are minimal!!!

Opinion piece or not, I thought it was worth careful reading; I really do.  And, of course, I didn't post it for myself.

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Mint the Guardian is left wing and will write things that support the left wing view. Perhaps need to contrast it with a right wing publication such as the Mail Where they reckon Doris can walk across the Thames without using a bridge.

How does a country deal with something like this? One way could be that everyone remains in their homes and does not go out at all - outcome everyone starves and the economy collapses. The opposite viewpoint is the President of Brazil - just carry on as normal and those who die just die but the economy stays strong. So realistically it needs to be somewhere between but where?

Saw some figures today where the majority of deaths in the UK are the over 75s - over 30,000. Under 15s - 3 deaths. So should there be different rules for different age groups.

This virus has shown the problems that they can cause. Could there be others to come. What about letting those who have resistance live and those that don't die. Those that have resistance will hopefully resist further viruses.
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Just out of interest, at the height of the pandemic, when the NHS was hanging on by the skin of its teeth,where were the elderly supposed to have been sent so as to relieve beds? This is, of course, presupposing that the thousands of bed blockers left in hospitals by councils had already been moved on.

No system could cope with what happened and it will always be easy to point the finger of blame at someone or some institution. And easy for the press to find victims.

France has, by the way, been little different, nor has Belgium but neither has such a vicious Press dedicated to pushing its own agenda.
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Mint, I think most of us UK-dwelling retirees will already be of idun's view, that we should continue to be cautious in emerging from our cocoons. As she says, the young just have to get on with earning a living, but we on pensions are extremely fortunate that we can afford to wait it out.

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WB said
"France has, by the way, been little different, nor has Belgium but

neither has such a vicious Press dedicated to pushing its own agenda."

An agenda often set by billionaire owners who do not live in the U.K, (Murdoch, and the Barclay Brothers) or who  claim non-dom status (Harmsworth)

The agenda pushed by the  Press that these people own is far from being left-wing, and of course in the case of the Telegraph actively supports and employs Johnson

Mistakes have been made in France and other countries, but nowhere else in Europe  has the lazy bungling of an incompetent government chosen for its members' ideology rather  than their abilities been as bad as can be observed in the UK.

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Norman, I am aware that the vicious, septicaemic Left is still angry that is was not able to cheat the democratic process at the last general election and that it has been stirring up anything it can over covid and now over the US racial shootings, but, please keep it off this forum.
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Norman, honestly, there have been mistakes, but I can tell you that at least where I live, it doesn't feel like there has been constant unadulterated bungling. Just does not.

And I don't know who you  think has been lazy, because I have frankly been impressed by so much during this lockdown, it has amazed me as to how quickly so much was done.

I have just about given up watching the news, or reading british papers at the moment, because I am sick to death of 'experts' mouthing off about things....... easy peasy from the comfort of their homes to criticise all the time, and actually doing nothing.

These 'experts' maybe could have started doing something concrete and constructive, but their interest, from my point of view, is simply in condemnation.

The world is full of moaning minnies, who content themselves with pointing out every last fault, not their own, obviously. And we can have a masterclass of 'that' every day on tv or radio or in the newspapers.

So no, NH, it has been OK for us and those we know. There have been a few problems  from time to time, but equally there has been some really good stuff as well, and everything in between.

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Norman, I cannot comment on the rest of Europe but partially agree with you on the UK and the media.

However, the printed media is not all right wing. Papers, such as Mints favourite, The Guardian are to the left.

I view this each day:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-53002625

(note this will probably only go to the newspapers of 11 June)

and it is the front pages of each days newspapers. Amazing differences. If things are bad for Doris then the Guardian will highlight this whilst the likes of the Daily Mail will have a completely different story and vice versa when things are going well for Doris.

Example, Torygraph - Bubbles will allow isolate adults to unite with families

Guardian - Thousands of lives could have been saved with earlier lockdown

So the Torygraph leads with the good news whilst the Guardian leads with the bad news.

He who pays the piper calls the tune so the papers play the proprietors tunes.
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An interesting link thanks, I have saved it.

A majority of those are rabid right though (Sun Express Mail, or owned by the same group Metro)

Compâre with the coverage in the French press
Le Figaro
Le Monde
Libération

 all of which are far more serious newspapers than most of the UK ones in those headlines

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Can I fly the flag for our regional newspaper, Sud Ouest?  That has coverage of national news as well as what happened to M. Dupont when he set fire to his own garage in Cognac.  That is a fictional news item that I invented, BTW; I merely wanted to show that it deals with national as well as very local events.

When I posted the Guardian article, I did say that I wasn't posting to score points and I THOUGHT I had managed to convey my wish for friends to read it in the hope that that would inform their actions in the lockdown relaxation.  Some hope!  Why do people always want to put a spin on them versus us, Tories versus Labour or whatever.

I shall be extra wary in future not to provoke this sort of discussion when that wasn't the object of my post at all.  Usually, I try to signal whether a post is to be taken literally, with a pinch of sort, with a smile, a grimace, with counterpoints to contradict me, etc.  I shall stick to asking help with problems and for French usage and post nothing that makes people think they know and can predict my thoughts and the newspapers I choose to read.  

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WB - Your views from a -

right wing perspective - intelligent, well-read, well informed

left-wing perspective - biased, far-right, influenced by millionaire newspaper owners...

Take your pick.

Me - I do exactly the same; I find it helps to have different aspects of information provided - and the spin and the bias is sometimes very, very noticeable.

Right-wing - as optimistic, upbeat as can be, and more in tune with ordinary people

Left wing - so pessimistic about D Trump, the usa, hates the UK, full of the luvvie selfie twiteratti lot, who are bending the knee to BLM - without a clue as to what's behind that movement.

We saw the rabid left-wing lot in full baying mode after D Cummings.

We now see our police force leaders and officers  'bending the knee' - what the h---l?

We see statues being destroyed.

What next - burning of books the rabble don't like ?

Even some of the lefty tv so-called 'comedy' programmes are now being banned !!!  The lefties are being banned by the even more extremist lefties - laugh or cry - don't know which.

And we can see, quite clearly, that those with a biased anti-democtatic, west hating, supporters of Marx are now in full frenzied mode.

Listening to some of the 'protestors' on tv being interviewed I despair at their total ignorance of British history - and then I wonder just WHAT is being taught in schools ?

Then I become very, very concerned for the future of the UK.

And I remember reading Orwell's 1984 -....

He definitely got it spot on about destroying history, destroying culture... nothing exists but today.

Now - spot my bias !!!!

Mint - I do apologise;  you posted a link to an article, in all good, faith - and said you didn't want politics brought in.

I'm sorry - but the word 'Guardian', - is a red rag sometimes;  the same way the words 'Daily Telegraph' or 'Daily Mail' act the same way.

Some of us can't help it.

But I do apologise.

-----

We've been so frightened, so brain-washed, so terrified - by the wretched media - that it seems we feel we can no longer trust our own common sense any more - which is very sad.

The printing, and signing of a form merely to go and do some essential shopping felt so 'ominous', so Big Brother State - that even I, who thinks the rules never (or seldom) apply to me, found it slightly disconcerting.

I think because we're missing our normal social contacts, our visits to friends, our sitting in a cafe, or having a meal in a restaurant/   We've become too, too focused on all the doom and gloom and have no group of friends with different outlooks to either cheer us up, laugh at us, put us in our place - and help us have a balanced perspective on 'life 'n stuff'.

Maybe in a few weeks when more normal socialising can occur, the over the top washing of shopping, and hands, etc - will cease to be a worry.

And hopefully life will return to some normality.

Sorry Mint - you posted, in all innocence, an interesting article - and I've written an editorial...!!

Must stop it.

You could always 'run out' of washing up liquid.....!!

Keep your sense of humour - more important than ever.  Bon courage.

Chessie

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Concerning an earlier country lockdown, this would have been a good idea.

Our eldest daughter lives in Nairobi and went into self-isolation around the 10th March. She finally flew back to LGW via Dubai on 22nd March on what would have been the last flight out of Nairobi. Dubai airport shutdown 24h after she had gone through.

All to say that she arrived in LGW unchallenged and would have been able to contaminate all those she met since (had she been a carrier). Remember that flights were still coming from all corners of the world (Indian Continent mainly) and all these good British subjects were able to carry the Virus to the 4 corners of these islands.

Now look at New Zealand. They imposed an immediate quarantine on arrival. Results? they are back in business so, in my opinion, JoBo must take some responsibility for the situation we are in for not having had the balls to take decisions when they had to be taken. Instead, he pussy-footed about "strongly suggesting" that British people followed some basic rules ......
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mint, this has been interesting.....nothing wrong with a healthy debate.

I take all newspapers with a pinch of salt. I doubt I will ever really trust any of them, what with their own agendas.

I don't even watch the news that much either these days.

My MIL used to get the Daily Mail, because her husband was a betting man and apparently there was good racing things in it. And she would read it and tell me about articles, as if they were the unadulterated truth.

A friend reads the Express from cover to cover and tells me 'stuff' too, as if it is the unadulterated truth, more like 'stuff and nonsense' much of it.

When they were all paper they were very useful things, wrap your fish and chips in them, or use to light a fire...... or, my impoverished grandmother, used to cut them up, pile the sheets up, put a hole in the corner and thread a string through, and voila, toilet paper.

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BiB, I don't know what your post meant, most of us have varied ideas about so much and sometimes unless we are so good, some of those ideas will be extreme, for good and what some would consider bad.

ie a paedophile, takes your child, grandchild, abuses and kills them........... I know I would have their demise in my heart, believing that hanging would be too good for them and wish the laws changed.

And some would forgive and accept the current laws, but I would hazard a guess that a LOT of people would not find anything 'fair' about current laws in such circumstances.

Life is full of paradoxes. If someone tells me their point of view, then I would have a discussion about it and tell them mine.

Goodness, in France, what on earth do you do à table with your guests, we always had debates, often heated, very heated. Only one guest went off in a huff, and they were english and had been in France a very long time, and should have known better, and been better behaved at 'my' table! The discussions I understand, hissy fits I do not!

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Idun - I just ignored the silly little one line comment; no idea who it was directed at, nor what it really meant.   Rather typical of the lefties - no real answer just throw insults or red paint.

Here's an interesting article - yup it's the dreaded Daily Mail - but it is reporting FACTS -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8414405/Police-protest-France-ban-chokeholds-wake-George-Floyds-death.html

and the Oz government have told their police force in no uncertain terms that the BLM violence won't be tolerated.

So my original point about the pathetic self-indulgent police 'kneeling' and which I found abhorrent I still do - and I'm not the only one.

Seems there's millions feel the same way.

Incidentally, several years ago the american police 'killed' a white young male in IDENTICAL cirumstances.

No protests about that, were there...

The person whose death is at the centre of this nonsense was a criminal, a drug addict, someone who had pointed a gun at the stomach of a pregnant woman amongst other crimes..

And HE is being held up as an 'innocent'.......

and the useful idiots don't have a clue, which is why they're 'useful idiots'.    How many here have read Douglas Murray's book - 'The Madness of Crowds' - or watched him interviewed.   Might give a different perspective on what is taking place; see the lefties real power play going on - and opens one's eyes to the way the press, the media and others are manipulating people's behaviours.   They're very clever - and highly dangerous - but don't be fooled.

Jeepers - the world has truly gone mad.  Must have been something in the water over the last 20 years destroying people's comon-sense and allowing the ill-liberal lefties to insinuate their way into schools, uni's, the media, and the establishment.

Think we should now call a halt to this BLM rubbish on this thread;  original poster must be furious.

= = = =

The UK went into lock-down shortly after France;   every single country, every single government has got this wrong - whatever they did, or did not do - they was wrong - or they was right;  the infection rate is high, the infection rate is low; everyone's at risk, no-one's really at risk.

We're all doomed, we're all going to survive.

The experts didn't have a clue; the science wasn't up to it - the advisers were idiots -

the ONLY people who got this right were the Clever Clogs

with Degrees in HIND SIGHT.

We are only human; we are led by very fallible human beings, who are advised by very fallible human beings.

They all did their best;  we did our part by following the advice of the fallible human beings,

and prayed as well, crossed our fingers, and rubbed our four-leaf shamrock - whatever....

The fingers should be pointed at china;  it originated from there, and the communist party covered up the truth for as long as they could......

That's where there needs to be full international investigations - but the commie party will not allow that to happen, and documents and people will go missing.......

But the commie party have managed to deal a savage blow to the world, to our families, our lives, the financial security of our children and grand-children, and I for one won't forgive them.

I intend to avoid, wherever possible, buying anything made in china - the chinese communists should not be allowed to escape unpunished.

Maybe ALL governments, having muddled through as best they could, need to re-think their attitudes to China.

Probably best if I put my soap-box away now for a few weeks.

It seems, looking at Meteo, that we are due a heatwave in about a week's time (at least in central france) - so time to get out the bikinis, the towels, the ice making machine, stock up on paper backs and wine !!

Sorry everyone - Chessie

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BiB, I don't know what your post meant, most of us have varied

ideas about so much and sometimes unless we are so good, some of those

ideas will be extreme, for good and what some would consider bad.

ie

a paedophile, takes your child, grandchild, abuses and kills

them........... I know I would have their demise in my heart, believing

that hanging would be too good for them and wish the laws changed.

And

some would forgive and accept the current laws, but I would hazard a

guess that a LOT of people would not find anything 'fair' about current

laws in such circumstances.

Life is full of paradoxes. If someone tells me their point of view, then I would have a discussion about it and tell them mine.

Goodness,

in France, what on earth do you do à table with your guests, we always

had debates, often heated, very heated. Only one guest went off in a

huff, and they were english and had been in France a very long time, and

should have known better, and been better behaved at 'my' table! The

discussions I understand, hissy fits I do not!

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Chessie I was totally with you about the clever clogs with the PhDs in hindsight, until you contradicted yourself by saying the finger should be now pointed at China.

There should be an investigation, you are right. Then, after that, we will have more certaintly where to point the finger.

It seels very likely that China will have things to answer for, just as it seems very likely that not checking arrivals into the UK and going into lockdown too late has cost lives. Sticking the entire blame onto the Commies and absolving everyone else, at this stage, is premature and a bit dangerous I think.
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Euro - thank you for taking the time to read my diatribe - I did let rip didn't I - oh dear.

But the scientists (yeah, I know) - but a large number of them have said that this virus should - by rights - be named the Wuhan virus (which is in china !!).

You are also right about allowing flights to continue into the UK was wrong - totally agree with you - and that was a very big mistake on government's part.   But didn't Trump want to ban flights into the usa from china - and he was NOT allowed to do so and was subject to wide spread criticism.   So maybe our gvt felt they didn't want to suffer the same abuse.

Not sure I was totally blaming the chinese commie party.  If the international bodies were to be allowed complete access to all the original data from china - I really don't feel there would be much doubt about where it came from - and the mis-handling and outright lies told by the chinese commies.

But I doubt whether we'll ever learn the real truth - only what 'they' decide us little plebs can be told.   It will take at least 50 or 60 years for the truth to come out.

As Douglas Murray wrote in his book - ...along the lines of looking back at history;  we look back 100, 200, 300 years and think 'What were they thinking of, why did they do that...'.   Future generations will look at us lot and think exactly the same.

Mistakes were made, of course they were - but it is only with hindsight can we see those mistakes.  I'm sure you, like many, and me, can look back over your life and say 'Uhm that was a mistake - I wish/should have done x, y, z ' - Yes or no ?

Peter Hitchens has written a thought provoking piece in today's Sunday Mail - yup - can hear the sounds of derision right now - but an interesting read.   Then contrast with pieces in the Groanio and you wonder whether they are writing about the same last 3 months, and the last 2 weeks in particular.

Just as an aside - all european countries were involved in the slave trade.   As were the African tribes, North Africans - AND the Muslims.

Are there any statues in France of notables who, apart from their status in life, were involved in the slave trade but then proceded to do much good ?

I am sorry - I have taken this post well away from the OP.   I just miss having political discussions with family and friends.....

Everyone, please forgive me - or ignore me - or just tolerate me - thank you 

Chessie

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