What does "habitable" mean?

[mint]

This is a serious question so please do not tell me that my piggery wouldn't be classified as "habitable".

What I want to know is what rooms do you include?

Do you take the external or internal dimensions of the house?

What headroom would a room have to be before you include it as habitable?

 

[Swissie]

Depends how tall you are , hihihihihi. Sorry, couln't resist. xx

[Jacqui Too]

I had to fill in the form this year to say if our house was habitable on 1st Jan so they could start charging us Tax de Habitation. I was surprised what they classed as habitable! If the house has a roof, water, electrical supply and sanitation then it is capable of being lived in and therefor taxable, were as I thought it had to have furniture in it as well but that was a different box to tick, habitable & empty is different to habitable, empty & furnished!

They must be tightening the screws on Tax de Habitation by throwing the net a little further.

Edit,  I just reread your OP am I on on the right track here or are you looking for a differnet sort of answer[blink]

 

[mint]

Well, Swissie, I should think that, at my height, anything a little higher than a rabbit's hutch would be perfectly habitable!

Jacqui, I am really meaning the measurement of the surface area as I am looking at lots of house adverts and it would be helpful to know that "habitable" is habitable in the sense that they haven't included, for example, an attached barn or garage.

Also, I am putting together a dossier of information of my own house (no not selling but the day will come) with dimensions, accommodation, services, etc etc.

[pachapapa]

There is a difference between the measurements under the Loi Boutin which applies to leases and the Loi Carrez which applies to sales.

The area for a sale is likely to be greater than for a lease: this is clear if you check the tabulation in the link noted below.

The surface area is now included in the Diagnostique.

http://www.pap.fr/diagnostic/diagnostic-immobilier/metrage-loi-carrez/surface-habitable-loi-boutin-et-surface-privative-loi-carrez-a1395

Edit: La Loi Carrez does not apply to private house sales, i.e. non coproprieté. But a vendor will presumably use it as a basis for a measurement of area.

So vendors may get different lengths of string.

[Perlats]

This is a serious question I have been pondering too but from a different angle. Does the house have to have none of the facilities or is lack of any one enough? Our fosse septique does not conform to new regulations and |I can't see how we will be able to bring it up to spec. in time (residence secondaire so no grants available). Is this enough to make the property uninhabitable? Does this mean we can declare it so, stop paying Tax hab and/or fonc and maybe we could just use a portaloo for holidays until such times as funds allow for a new system?

[Polly]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

There is a difference between the measurements under the Loi Boutin which applies to leases and the Loi Carrez which applies to sales.

The area for a sale is likely to be greater than for a lease: this is clear if you check the tabulation in the link noted below.

The surface area is now included in the Diagnostique.

http://www.pap.fr/diagnostic/diagnostic-immobilier/metrage-loi-carrez/surface-habitable-loi-boutin-et-surface-privative-loi-carrez-a1395

Edit: La Loi Carrez does not apply to private house sales, i.e. non coproprieté. But a vendor will presumably use it as a basis for a measurement of area.

So vendors may get different lengths of string.

[/quote]

The loi Carrez definition is not the same as the one used in Modele H1

to determine floorspace for tax fonciere & taxe d'habitation

purposes (see the notes on the back of the form H1)

[Polly]

[quote user="Perlats"]This is a serious question I have been pondering too but from a different angle. Does the house have to have none of the facilities or is lack of any one enough? Our fosse septique does not conform to new regulations and |I can't see how we will be able to bring it up to spec. in time (residence secondaire so no grants available). Is this enough to make the property uninhabitable? Does this mean we can declare it so, stop paying Tax hab and/or fonc and maybe we could just use a portaloo for holidays until such times as funds allow for a new system?[/quote]

If your house is bascially habitable in terms of walls, roof, windows it is habitable in the fiscal sense of the word. No, you can't stop paying those taxes simply because you haven't brought your facilities up to standard.

There is, in any case, no time limit on when you must update your drainage system unless you have been served with a legal notice warninng you about the pollution you are causing, a situation which is very rare indeed.

[AnOther]

I cannot see how a non conforming fosse would be the determiner of habitability or not. Were that so then probably 25% of French housing stock would be classified as uninhabitable [blink]

What grants do you imagine are available to owners in residence BTW ?

 

[Perlats]

Well, we have had the inspection for our area and know that our system does not comply with current regulations. We were told that we need to comply by 2013. We were also told by the person who carried out the survey that there would “probably” be grants available later for main residences. Our system was perfectly acceptable when we bought the property twelve years ago but times move on and standards are now higher. Unfortunately to replace the system is not an option for us in the near future and I just wanted to explore the possibilities in a worst case scenario. I think the new norms for sanitation are being rolled out area by area (we are in the North West) and some parts of France have not been notified of this yet.

[Perlats]

Well, we have had the inspection for our area and know that our system does not comply with current regulations. We were told that we need to comply by 2013. We were also told by the person who carried out the survey that there would “probably” be grants available later for main residences. Our system was perfectly acceptable when we bought the property twelve years ago but times move on and standards are now higher. Unfortunately to replace the system is not an option for us in the near future and I just wanted to explore the possibilities in a worst case scenario. I think the new norms for sanitation are being rolled out area by area (we are in the North West) and some parts of France may have not been notified of this yet.

[Perlats]

Sorry - please delete my duplicated message, permission has expired.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Polly"][quote user="pachapapa"]

There is a difference between the measurements under the Loi Boutin which applies to leases and the Loi Carrez which applies to sales.

The area for a sale is likely to be greater than for a lease: this is clear if you check the tabulation in the link noted below.

The surface area is now included in the Diagnostique.

http://www.pap.fr/diagnostic/diagnostic-immobilier/metrage-loi-carrez/surface-habitable-loi-boutin-et-surface-privative-loi-carrez-a1395

Edit: La Loi Carrez does not apply to private house sales, i.e. non coproprieté. But a vendor will presumably use it as a basis for a measurement of area.

So vendors may get different lengths of string.

[/quote]

The loi Carrez definition is not the same as the one used in Modele H1 to determine floorspace for tax fonciere & taxe d'habitation purposes (see the notes on the back of the form H1)
[/quote]

True but I fancy S17 is thinking of house sizes in a buy/sell situation rather than the fiscal situation post construction or works. Personally I have only used the Déclaration H1 on one occasion, when the grenier changed from annexe to combles aménagés with an increase of surface equivalent to 50% of the effective increase in area.

[Polly]

[quote user="AnOther"]

What grants do you imagine are available to owners in residence BTW ?

[/quote]

Not a grant as such, but some financial help : "un éco-prêt à taux zéro spécifique assainissement non collectif" ie an interest-free loan of up to 10,000€ if your house is your principal private residence. You'll need a lot of patience, and be happy to jump through a lot of hoops, starting at www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/spip.php?page=article&id_article=7276.

Also for any homeowner, second or main home, subject to the usual conditions, works to improve your foul drainage system benefit from the 5,5% reduced rate of TVA

[Polly]

[quote user="Perlats"]Well, we have had the inspection for our area and know that our system does not comply with current regulations. We were told that we need to comply by 2013. We were also told by the person who carried out the survey that there would “probably” be grants available later for main residences. Our system was perfectly acceptable when we bought the property twelve years ago but times move on and standards are now higher. Unfortunately to replace the system is not an option for us in the near future and I just wanted to explore the possibilities in a worst case scenario. I think the new norms for sanitation are being rolled out area by area (we are in the North West) and some parts of France have not been notified of this yet.[/quote]

The new rules are not being rolled out gradually across the country, but local interpretations will vary according to who is doing the inspections and how busy they are.

The authorities can only require improvements within 4 years where the system is so bad that it constitutes a health risk or serious environmental pollution. For less serious defects they will make recommendations, so check the wording of your report. A good page (in French) for further info from the consumer's point of view is http://www.spanc.clcv.org/articles.html

You also need to be clear about what is wrong with your system, is it for example the fosse or inadequate post-fosse filtration?

[NormanH]

In simple terms I think there are different definitions depending on who is using the word and the context.

1) an estate agent  ( http://www.architecte-paca.com/reglementation/carrez.php)

2) for declaring for taxe d'habitation

3) the man in the street.

4) people like me who live quite happily in my 'barrel' (in joke), in other words conditions that you wouldn't  expect other people to live in, but accept for yourself.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Polly"]Not a grant as such, but some financial help [/quote]That was my meaning Polly, I wasn't aware that grants were available to anybody.

I wonder if for those on very low incomes with no real prospect of paying off a loan (or possibly living long enough to do so) a lien might be taken on the property ?

As an aside, I think SAUR must be reading these forums because days after I'd said somewhere that we had 'forgotten' to make an appointment for an inspection over 2 years ago out of the blue we got a letter - asking us to make an appointment and they are coming in about 3 weeks time.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Polly"][quote user="Perlats"]Well, we have had the inspection for our area and know that our system does not comply with current regulations. We were told that we need to comply by 2013. We were also told by the person who carried out the survey that there would “probably” be grants available later for main residences. Our system was perfectly acceptable when we bought the property twelve years ago but times move on and standards are now higher. Unfortunately to replace the system is not an option for us in the near future and I just wanted to explore the possibilities in a worst case scenario. I think the new norms for sanitation are being rolled out area by area (we are in the North West) and some parts of France have not been notified of this yet.[/quote]

The new rules are not being rolled out gradually across the country, but local interpretations will vary according to who is doing the inspections and how busy they are.

The authorities can only require improvements within 4 years where the system is so bad that it constitutes a health risk or serious environmental pollution. For less serious defects they will make recommendations, so check the wording of your report. A good page (in French) for further info from the consumer's point of view is http://www.spanc.clcv.org/articles.html

You also need to be clear about what is wrong with your system, is it for example the fosse or inadequate post-fosse filtration?
[/quote]

Something wrong with link Polly rerads as http:/// ??

Link modification: http://www.spanc.clcv.org/articles.html

[woolybanana]

Just a note of caution here; you need to be very careful that these letters demanding appointmentrs are indeed coming from SPANC and not some commercial organisation passing themselves off and trying to make a fast buck.

[AnOther]

Thanks for the warning, I'm being held prisoner offshore at present but I'll make sure 'er indoors checks it out [;-)]

 

[mint]

[quote user="pachapapa"][

True but I fancy S17 is thinking of house sizes in a buy/sell situation rather than the fiscal situation post construction or works. Personally I have only used the Déclaration H1 on one occasion, when the grenier changed from annexe to combles aménagés with an increase of surface equivalent to 50% of the effective increase in area.

[/quote]

Pacha, many thanks for your link which I found useful and interesting.  You are exactly right, I need this information for preparing the dossier for my house and also to give me an idea what size a property is when I look at its sales particulars.

So, now I can ask OH to take the interior measurements and to take out the space of the stairwell.

At least then, when the diagnostics are done, we can check on whether the figure we will be given is actually correct.

If I have learned nothing else, it's not to believe anything I am told by anybody selling their houses without verifying what they tell me![I]

 

 

[pachapapa]

Observation in an ANC rehabilitation context a PTZ ( prêt taux zero) only applies to a gravity system; anything with a pump and that includes most µSteps ( MWWTP in english) will not qualify.

[Polly]

As I said, pachap, one jumps through hoops for an ECO pret which is after all to encourage green stuff.....

[Perlats]

Thanks to Polly and Pachapapa for the links. I am afraid we have been told we do need a whole new system although I do not consider our present one is a pollution danger – we have a fosse for foul water which we have emptied when necessary and the grey water soaks away in the garden but we have always been strict in using only environmentally friendly products so I don’t see it as any different from throwing the washing up water on the veggie plot. Of course we are only there a few weeks a year and the authorities need a system in place that is suitable for permanent habitation. Apologies for having gone off thread somewhat.

[mint]

Pacha, could you please look at the PM I have sent you?