Jump to content

1st question from a new member - Buying cheap and renovating longterm


clayrr
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hello, everyone,

I've enjoyed and been educated by what I've read hereabouts, and now I'm stepping up to the front of the class to ask my first question.

My rough plan is as follows: In likely early 2011 I plan to buy a little house/barn/convertible-whatever in France (region TBD) and make it a longterm project to renovate it. Based on my DIY experience at home, I'll be comfortable in varying degrees with such things as basic carpentry, kitchen installation, drywall and painting, and will hire tradespeople to do roofing, electricical upgrades, plumbing (interior and exterior). Depending on the amount of work needed, I foresee spending all my vacations over the succeeding 5 or 10 years to do the necessary work gradually. For example, one summer I go over and arrange for the necessary roofing work. Next year I go and hire someone to refit the plumbing as necessary. The next year I go over and see to electrical work.

Eventually, I'll theoretically have a vacation and part-time retirement property.

My main question now is...

If the place I buy isn't a house in a town and needs a CU (and it has one already in place or I obtain it myself), if I begin work within the required time period of the CU, as long as I make continuous renovations will I have to re-apply for a CU every so often? Will it be a problem if my Master Plan entails litle bits of work performed over a long period of time?

Does this make sense?

Thanks very much in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You don't have to worry, a lot of people have dreams of doing that, and some of them actually achieve it.

A few cautionary notes.

  • Make sure that when you buy there is a clause in the sale contract that makes the sale conditional on getting a positive CU; a decent agent or notaire will make sure this is the case but you can't rely on it. Be particularly cautious with private sales; they may be selling their ruin because they haven't been able to get a CU.
  • Make sure that work can be seen to have started before the CU expires, then you should not have any problem in that respect.
  • Look into the implications of work that you choose to do yourself; all work should be covered by a 10-year insurance and this can lead to problems on re-sale with DIY work.
  • Don't expect to make money. The 'buying cheap' idea is less realistic than several years ago, unless you strike very lucky. Places are cheap for a good reason, e.g. no CU, serious structural problems, plans for adjacent motorway/TGV Line/abbatoir/nuclear power station/high voltage cables/wind farm etc. And renovation always costs several times your original estimate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think I can add anything much to Will's wise words, except to say - from someone working in the property business - that a house that has been DIY-renovated is not, repeat not, attractive to many buyers, particularly the French. They prefer to see work carried out by professional, registered artisans.

The only worse situation is DIY work that is half finished, where the vendor has run out of money and is trying to sell the house to recoup his losses.

To end on a more positive note, if you do go ahead, I would recommend using an architect - against all the prejudices about high costs etc - even for small projects they can be very cost effective. I have just written a piece in October's French Property News (part of Archant, owners of this site) about architect designed projects costing less than 100,000 euros for a 3-bedroom house (excluding land of course), using artisans. They are often happy to oversee DIY projects and can advise on sourcing materials, cutting costs by using standard sizes, use of eco materials which add value etc and generally ensuring that you do it right.  

Hope this helps - P-D de R.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone for your quick replies.

I should have been clearer, I guess, and said that resale isn't my ultimate goal.  One never knows, of course, so I fully understand the concept of being careful about the work you do - about having it done right. I have no intention of turning a charming little "maison de pierres" into a Mid-Century Modern masterpiece. I already live in one of those!

And when I said "summer," it occurs to me that I meant, "on my vacation...whenever that might be." I'm in my forties and don't have kids so I can take vacation pretty much any time of the year, but I guess the idea of "summer vacation" has stuck around from school days.

Thank you again for your help.

-Clay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In always feel like the prick in the balloon factory of life when I start one of these postings. However, there are times when I wish somebody had pointed out some of this before I started our renovation.

 

Allowing for Notaries fees, estate agents fees, taxes etc. as soon as you buy a house the house has to go up in value by about 15 % for you to get you money back.

 

There is a post either here or on TF from somebody on the West Coast describing the grief she is having with a French Builder who is ill and has not completed the work for which he received a deposit. I believe she had purchased in Marseille.If somebody else can recall the thread and find it I think it would be worth posting. When you are at home you will be almost half the day away from a builder who you are trying to speak to in France.

 

We decided to buy a maison secondaire in France after we had been visiting France for 15 years as a couple. We had stayed in most major towns and spent holidays in the main regions. Despite that we choose somewhere that was great as an occasional holiday home but not somewhere we wanted to live permanently.

 

I used to visit three times a year for two weeks, work between 60 and 80 hours a week when I was there. Isabel joined me for four weeks a year and grafted every bit as hard. I enjoyed the work as it was a total contrast to what I did for the rest of my life. We also used to visit / take a day trip to Calais or Boulogne so we could pick up plumbing and electrical stuff between trips so we did not have to take half a day out getting to the local Brico Depot as soon as we arrived. Link below to the place we finished but it was too small only 100 square metres and was in the wrong place.

 

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/gallery/mandrake

 

If it were me I would visit France, take my time discover somewhere that appealed and then rent a gite or even stay in the same hotel a couple of times before buying. The money and time you spent should be repaid by a much better initial purchase. I know I am reasonably tough but I could not have finished it with out support and help.

 

I had no problems as regards quality of work with French prospective purchasers

 

Best of luck what ever you decide.

aa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

''The best laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft agley'' - Robert Burns

I'm in the middle of one and would not wish to put anyone off, quite the contrary, I'm enjoying it in a perverse sort of way, though the work is just a means to an end now. Over five years ago we bought it, and all manner of things have interrupted progress; in 2007 we ordered a fireplace cut from limestone and carved with the anticipated date of our habitation, it says everything, 2008; with luck I may be in 2010! devi's quoted for work that seemed ridiculous, now seem a bargain[:D]; however it is still the challenge and dream that it originally was and the best place to sit on a summers eve with a bottle.
I would say however, be very realistic, don't let anyone do anything unless you are there, especially do not pay until you have seen it, and have plenty of margin, bon courage! [8-|]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Anton Redman"]

 

I used to visit three times a year for two weeks, work between 60 and 80 hours a week when I was there. Isabel joined me for four weeks a year and grafted every bit as hard. I enjoyed the work as it was a total contrast to what I did for the rest of my life. We also used to visit / take a day trip to Calais or Boulogne so we could pick up plumbing and electrical stuff between trips so we did not have to take half a day out getting to the local Brico Depot as soon as we arrived. Link below to the place we finished but it was too small only 100 square metres and was in the wrong place.

 

http://www.totalfrance.com/france/gallery/mandrake

 

If it were me I would visit France, take my time discover somewhere that appealed and then rent a gite or even stay in the same hotel a couple of times before buying. The money and time you spent should be repaid by a much better initial purchase. I know I am reasonably tough but I could not have finished it with out support and help.

 

[/quote]

Wise words but even more ...

Gosh, your renovation might be small - but the end product was superbly executed and finished

What a pity that in the end the house was not big enough for your needs. My OH can put up shelves and plumb-in  washing machines and, together, we can fit a not-too-bad kitchen; but your skills are way beyond our remit.

Sue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We bought a house that was basically habitable and gave it a quick freshen up. New kitchen and re wire, 8 years on we are finally doing the larger jobs one small step at a time. We only have 3 2 week trips a year and don't do much work in the summer, after all you have to enjoy the house and get out and about to explore the area! We are still too young to retire so you never know we might have the house finished by then...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only problem I can see with Clay's plan is going to be coordinating his visits with the tradespeople doing their tasks.

 

Tradesmen are difficult enough to tie down, but in France it seems to be impossible or very nearly to get them to come, do the work - all of it - and leave at a set time.  You can sometimes get them to do one of the three. 

 

If you can be very flexible on vacations and at short notice then it might work provided you can tie in with their schedules - otherwise you will be having to leave keys with someone - and that could well be the architect, if they are agreeable.

 

You also need to be aware that building techniques and materials in France are sometimes different (and usually for good reason), so your hard earned experience in the UK may need to be relearned.  This can be another reason why DIY is not popular if resale becomes an issue.

 

Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 8 months later...
That's funny, I have exactly the same plan! I've just started my search

online – I'm not set on any particular area. I do know

that I want to renovate an older property and turn it into a luxury

rental. My plan is to move in a few years and live off the income.

At this point my two biggest concerns are:

1) How much should I budget for the renovation of a medium sized property? (assuming it'll need a

new roof, septic tank, electrics, etc.)

2) I speak very little French, I'm 46 and I would be starting a new life

in France on my own. Am I crazy?

Btw, what is a CU?

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Briefly, a Cd'U is the Certificate d'urbanism, roughly equivalent to UK Outline planning; giving a very basic permission to apply for planning permission to build or renovate a property, after which detail planning permission is required, it is not a building permit, this is only granted after detailed planning has been approved. In other words, when buying land or a property, ensure it has a Cd'U (it lasts for 18months during which time you are expected to apply for planning permission, after this time if you have not obtained planning permission you will have to apply again for the C'd'U and conditions may change so it's time specific, check dates).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="John"]That's funny, I have exactly the same plan! I've just started my search online – I'm not set on any particular area. I do know that I want to renovate an older property and turn it into a luxury rental. My plan is to move in a few years and live off the income.

At this point my two biggest concerns are:

1) How much should I budget for the renovation of a medium sized property? (assuming it'll need a new roof, septic tank, electrics, etc.)

For luxury finish I would budget at least 1500€/square metre floor area.


2) I speak very little French, I'm 46 and I would be starting a new life in France on my own. Am I crazy?

Very probably, but don't let that stop you.  Start learning French.  Good luck

Btw, what is a CU?

Thanks
[/quote]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="John"] I do know that I want to renovate an older property and turn it into a luxury rental. My plan is to move in a few years and live off the income.

) I speak very little French, I'm 46 and I would be starting a new life in France on my own. Am I crazy?

[/quote]

That was exactly my situation in 2005, renovation of an older property to turn into rental units (but at the other end of the spectrum), 46, spoke no French and was starting a new life alone.

Yes you do need to be crazy but I didnt have to ask the question of whether I was [;-)]

On the positive side you are more likely to pick up the language than others in different situations, when a man is hungry he will find a way to eat.

Editted, re your budget, no-one is going to be able to answer without more details but I can enlighten you on my method of calculation and how accurate it has proved to have been.

I worked on the basis of "everything is cheaper in France" (yes I really did believe that then but of course hadnt actually ever seen a devi), the property only cost X €uros surely if I budget the same amount for the renovations I cant possibly spend that much again?

And I was right about the not possibly spending that much again! I am currently 5 years in to a 2 year project (my calculations again) and am hopefully a little over half way through the job, I reckon that I will end up spending 2 -3 times my original budget but only time will tell, what i can tell you is that no way could I afford to have anything done by an artisan and travel across europe to find cheaper materials.

In reality the greatest cost and one that I had not budgetted for at all is my general living costs, lifes emergencies etc during the protracted time that the job is taking.

In your shoes I would cobble together a budget, double it and allow double the time and hence double the living costs without income.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You and me both Chancer; Life does that, but if you waited for the accountants to pass the budget you definitely would go insane,

You could follow Dan Wieden's Nike slogan "Just Do It", but if you're afraid of the water going over your head, don't jump, little by little  . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your great advice Chancer. So how did your rental units turn out? Have you been able to generate enough revenue from them? Since I have yet to find a property, I'll have to figure out how many units it will take in order to be profitable & afford to live in France.

On a more personal note, has it been easy to make new friends (French people) or find a partner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="John"]

Thanks for your great advice Chancer. So how did your rental units turn out? Have you been able to generate enough revenue from them? Since I have yet to find a property, I'll have to figure out how many units it will take in order to be profitable & afford to live in France.

Ask me in say another 10 years!

On a more personal note, has it been easy to make new friends (French people).

At first I thought that it was easy but in hindsight they were the superficial ones that soon lost interest when they realsied that i wasnt a pigeon, real friends in the way that I class them in the UK are virtually impossible to find as a single person.

 or find a partner?

Quite easy once you learn to play on your exoticness but again these are ften only transitory affairs unless you get sucked in, if you do find your femme de vie then you will also find how strong family loyalties are in France.

You may well end up with real true friends of the out-laws and brother/sister in laws long after the romance has dissapeared. If you are not willing to move on when things turn for the worst pick a partner whose family you get on well with.

[/quote]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's very helpful. So I assume the 1,500 Euros per square metre includes kitchen appliances, bathroom sinks, tubs, etc? The property is very old and I would probably need artisans – do you think this would this increase the cost? Could anybody out there recommend somebody they've worked with?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...