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Got to be Labour again for me.


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"I won't get political here mops but I beg to differ on that statement, all our French friends, up and down the country and others we have spoken with, in the main, detested her vision and the way she let people simply fall by the wayside, something France and its inherent Socialism cannot (for the most part)stand by and watch. The strikes you so often see here are the solidarity of a race that the Dame de Fer simply would not have broken."

 

Sorry Miki, we'll have to agree to differ on this one.  Maybe you mix with very different French people from us (but must confess many of our French friends we have known for nearly 40 years) or perhaps they are of the same political bent as us.  Why is there so much envy when people succeed?  Everything we have is through hard work, sacrificing a normal family life to live and work overseas for over 20+ years.  There is no inherited wealth, we haven't ever sponged on society, we paid for private health care and education and yes we object to having to pay for those who believe that the state owes them a living. Likewise we don't expect any cash handouts from France or Britain.  If this makes me a capitalist then I'm proud to be one!

 

Un repas sans vin est comme un jour sans soleil

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[quote]"I won't get political here mops but I beg to differ on that statement, all our French friends, up and down the country and others we have spoken with, in the main, detested her vision and the way she...[/quote]

I think we will have to disagree Mops, mainly because from my point I see no relevance in your posting !

Are you saying anyone different to you is not hardworking ?

Many poor folk work a lot harder than you or I throughout their life but will need some help on occasion. I find it a little patronising that you insinuate that it is below you to need a handout, so therefore anyone who does is a sponger.

Many people would prefer to be in yours or even our shoes but through circumstances will never be so, that is no reason to be vitriolic about those who need help. You have lived long in the socialist country that is France and have no doubt sung its praises from on high. This help and assistance that one is able to get here and in the UK, did not come from a selfish attitude that some people and countries suffer from.

There but for the grace of God I think..................

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Now we have reached the interesting paradox which is french society. French socialism, I found very different from my own idea of socialism.

The CMU and RMI are very recent. These two things covered great gaping chasms in social cover. Hardly things that a country with good social welfare would be without and yet they were. And yet France always gave the impression of being socialist.

Would Maggie or her ilk have gone down well. The iron lady herself was not popular. Would a french version be popular, well I'm not sure. Sarko seemed at one point to be filling some sort of firm right role.

And it mustn't be forgotten that the french still guard that revolutionary urge. If it really doesn't suit they will take to the barricades.

Very complicated and so many things are never quite as they seem. Things that I will rant about and I find friends won't bat an eye lid, and tell me that I should know better by now, as to how things are and just accept, there is nothing to be done.  AND those other occasions and they are ready and raring to protest as is their right.

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 Everything we have is through hard work, sacrificing a normal family life to live and work overseas for over 20+ years.  There is no inherited wealth, we haven't ever sponged on society,

This is such emotional language though, isn't it?.

Surely if you worked overseas you chose to do so. Just as I 'chose' to have three low paid jobs in my twenties, was that just like you, sacrificing a 'normal family life', or would you see me as different to you?.

'we paid for private health care and education and yes we object to having to pay for those who believe that the state owes them a living'.

I object to paying for someone who is just lazy, but it is wasted time and energy, I do not care about a few lazy people. Surely it is a tiny minority, those who can work, but who will not?

Personally, I would rather elderly people, and certain other groups did not have to go through means testing, just to sort out this pathetic minority.

Likewise we don't expect any cash handouts from France or Britain. 

Me neither, but thats how lucky you and I are, having had the wherewithall to pay more than the minimum (i.e the state NIC); 

I am always wary of using phrases like 'cash handouts', because that, essentially, is what I would need if I was desperate and let's face it, it's not exactly the high life, whatever the 'Sun' says.

Also, it's what I have paid in for, for myself and others, you know, solidarity etc, just like here in France, we all pay.

tresco

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The problem for me is I don't believe in Party Politics. I was reading leaflets today and I agree with some things and not with others. I'm sure many people are the same. So then it comes down to personalities. Can't say I like any of the leaders particularly. But there is no way I could vote for Tony Blair because of the Iraq war and no way I could vote for Michael Howard because I'm a European. But I don't agree with some of the Lib Dem suggestions either. So, it leaves me in a bit of a dilemma. But I do want to be part of Europe and have the Euro. I don't want to be part of the American war on Muslim countries. I agree we need more police on the streets (being married to a policeman). I agree that we need more discipline in schools, but don't agree with the suggestion that headmasters should be able to expel disruptive students easily as that just puts the troublemakers onto the streets and makes it worse for everyone! I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps a hung parliament would be interesting!

I'd far rather though, that the local candidates would be allowed to have their own views on certain things and then we could vote for people we felt were really representing our interests. Oh, but that would be too democratic.

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Whatever my thoughts on the rest of each party's policies, I can never forgive Brown.  Having based all my plans for retirement on pensions calculated under the system that had existed certainly since I really started thinking about them (like most people of my generation well after I had hit my thirties), I was devastated when one of his first actions was to change the rules.  Now our dream of retiring to our cottage in Picardy in eight years' time looks like receding, maybe for up to another five years.

Billy Liar and Burglar Brown can whistle for my vote!

Peter

 

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Bringing France into this discussion. When they were talking about restricting immigration to Britain on television last night, they were talking about the high proportion of French and others coming to Britain (and not mentioning assylum seekers in this instance as I would have expected).

They said that the French believe that one of the problems with the French economy is that skilled French workers are coming to work in Britain!

Had any of you heard this?

If this is the case, then surely with all the British moving to France, there must be some skilled workers who could take on the jobs?

Why then, with the shortage of skilled workers, was a French Menuisier Ebeniste unable to get a job?

Surely there must be out of work French and British in France who could be trained to do skilled work?

Failing this, perhaps there are assylum seekers who would be grateful for the training?

Any comments?
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I don't get the impression that it is French plumbers and the like who are deserting France for Britain.

I know absolutely loads of French people who have a cousin, sister, nephew etc who lives and works in London. But generally they work in jobs where they use their English so I am not sure that British people could come over an replace them that easily. It always seems to be London, and it is often computer type jobs. They get better money, they have the experience of living in a foreign country and when they come back their cv has that little extra...

The other group I know about is people going to do a PGCE to teach French. In Lyon one of the universities actually organises this as part of their masters. The students go over and do the PGCE, teach for two or three years, (although some end up staying indefinitely) and then come back to do the French equivalent. Just goes to show what a great shortage of language teachers there has been in Britain.
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Yes Jill, I have heard this before. Highly trained people are moving to Britain from France. And last night I heard someone say that this was one of the reasons that the french economy is not as boyant (sp) as it should be.

Saying that, there are plenty of highly skilled people here, just the system makes it hard for some to get the jobs they want/should be doing and the pay is often lousy, hardly an incentive really.

Didn't someone say that the french ambassador or a french minister told british politicians 'we send you our young and you send us your old'. Sort of true really judging by how many retirees move here.

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Yes, I saw that progarmme on TV last night. I was quite shocked at the way it stated that the young French were going to the UK in quite large numbers.

I also saw last month a report that the French were to look at the Health service in the UK to see how it worked in practice. Worrying time for some then.

We sat with two French couples from Strasbourg for a while last night, we spoke about this and that but what struck us, was that they were really interestd in the opportunities, salaries etc in the UK, as both families had a son or daughter who had mentioned more than once, the possibilty of going to the UK to seek work.

As you quoted TU, for the greater part, we and the French work the immigration "thing" in reverse !!

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I’m very glad there are such a range of opinions (dead boring if everybody agrees with everybody).

For myself I used to be sympathetic to Labours aims (social equality, etc.) but they then moved somewhat to the “right” of the Conservatives leaving the Lib Dems’ the “left wing party.

All things being equal I would vote Labour except that I could never vote for a party that involved the UK in a US Oil War (that was probably illegal), that has lied to (or mislead by omission) the British people, that regards alliances with the US as being more important that with Europe, that cannot educate our children to university level, has legalised political prisoners (trial without jury, etc.), etc. trouble is I bet the Conservatives would do the same in practice.

The above is a great disappointment to me. I actually feel that the problem may not be with Labour but with Mr. T

As far as voting, I cannot. The Returning Officer in my constituency refuses to register me as an overseas voter (as my postcode is outside his area). My MP has tried to sort this out without success. The electoral commission have stated that legally he must but they cannot get involved in individual cases. I have asked to escalate the issue and he has told me to escalate it to the Council Chief Executive (himself !!). I was politically active (not extreme) when living in the UK and was warned about the Returning Officers attitudes and that I would probably lose my UK vote. I had no vote in the last European elections and have no vote in these elections and am thus pretty cynical about democracy in the UK.

If I did have a vote, I would probably vote for my Conservative MP – not because of the party but because he represents the electorate. Over the last year I have contacted him about a number of issues and found that on those issues he did not vote with the party. On several occasions when I have written he has acknowledged and taken the matter up with the appropriate department and a month or two later I have received the full response. He does seem to regard representing people as more important than party dogma and “towing the party line”.

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these replies are so media driven or by pathetic volvo estate type people

get a grip, England has never been so good (you know what I mean) there has never been a 'low' whilst in Labour, apart from the fuel thing, I dont know what people want, why should a future government say you will get £££ moreu nder us, what right do you have to get something for nothing, what is it that we should vote if we get more £££ for nothing.

 

Labour

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The problem with all Labour governments is that you end up getting nothing - for far more of your £'s.

Glad I'm out of it all. One of the nicest things about being an ex-pat Brit in France is that you don't necessarily have to have an opinion on French or UK politics.

Patrick
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Chezshells, Please believe me - I am not a Volvo driver, not I hope pathetic, but I simply could not vote for TB.

I cannot forget Iraq and the strength of public feeling he chose to ignore. Or the way he shilly shallied over the fox hunting issue when a promise to ban it was in the Labour manifesto.

I have a cousin who is a staunch Labour supporter. Last time I saw him he said that he thought a country who would not educate its young people but was happy to send them to war was morally bankrupt. I think he has a point. I am not by any means the only one.

There is a very real feeling of disappointment about 'New Labour' who promised so much, and I, like many others want value for our tax pounds.

I don't want something for nothing - I want a party that sticks to what it says it will do 'on the tin'
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[quote]Chezshells, Please believe me - I am not a Volvo driver, not I hope pathetic, but I simply could not vote for TB.I cannot forget Iraq and the strength of public feeling he chose to ignore. Or the way ...[/quote]

In complete agreement.

I would add to that how he lied (or misled in a major way) the people over the facts about the Iraq War. He may not have personally crossed out the qualifications - but he was in charge and responsible. If he appointed morally inadequate people to do the work then in my book he is still responsible.

I suppose I sympathise with (some) socialist ideals (equality, health service for all, decent education for all, decent housing for all, etc. - maybe they are not socialist but you know what I mean) - yet now have no party to vote for.

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Russie,a party that will not educate it`s young but will send them to war,not an exact quote,first why should any government educate(I think you are on about further educate),let alone pay for it,when the recipient of further education can and does go on to earn a lot more due the the education paid for by the state than them that do not go on the said further education during their working life.Second todays army, airforce and navy are volunteers and have chose to join the services NO ONE made them,they knew the risks when they joined and are happy to take the money.

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Outie, Firstly I was quoting some one else, secondly surely its a pretty basic principal of socialist policy that there is a fundamental right to education. Ask some one like Anthony Wedgwood Benn or Micheal Foot.

An investment in our young is an investment in all our futures ( oh my god - I am a socialist !!)

PS Outie Our daughter went to Uni and got a reasonable degree, it cost us £15000 out of taxed income. She also has student loan that needs repaying. When she is earning better than average money which I am sure she will, she will pay better than average tax - so I am sorry but I don't actually feel the government have given her terribly much.
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[quote]Outie, Firstly I was quoting some one else, secondly surely its a pretty basic principal of socialist policy that there is a fundamental right to education. Ask some one like Anthony Wedgwood Benn or ...[/quote]

When does it stop becoming a right and start to become a privilege,11 years state education not enough.

 

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[quote]When does it stop becoming a right and start to become a privilege,11 years state education not enough.[/quote]

My own answer to that would be “when somebody has achieved (close to) their potential.
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