Punch Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Just listening to an eyewitness report live on Sky who is describing how a man was shot five times on a train at Stockwell this morning, by plain clothes officers.The man of asian appearence ran onto the train, pursued by three armed officers - he tripped and fell and was then shot five times whilst on the floor. he was wearing a padded type of checked jacket which was unusual in the morning heat. The eyewitness was less than four yards from the victim, and said he was definetely killed but the police have yet to confirm anything. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Now saying that he WAS a suicide bomber - I don't know what the proof of that is. Police have orders to shoot suspected bombers in the head for a little while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 [quote]Now saying that he WAS a suicide bomber - I don't know what the proof of that is. Police have orders to shoot suspected bombers in the head for a little while now.[/quote]Typical! Shoot first! Ask questions later!........I think they should refrain from the head as a target! Instead shoot in the legs to disable the person.What good is this dead person to their enquiry!?...He can no longer answer any vital questions which could shed more light on the crime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 So you shoot a suicide bomber in the leg - and he lets the bomb go - think about it for a minute... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted July 22, 2005 Author Share Posted July 22, 2005 [quote]Typical! Shoot first! Ask questions later!........I think they should refrain from the head as a target! Instead shoot in the legs to disable the person.What good is this dead person to their enquiry!...[/quote]At first light that seems sensible BUT after listening to a police expert, who said that if any individual is AN IMMEDIATE THREAT then he has to be killed as quickly as possible; If he was a suicide bomber and was about to detonate then I know what I would prefer to happen to him. It was stated that the armed police are so highly trained that it is likely that this man was known and WAS pursued into the station where it seems likely he could have committed an awful act if he wasn't dispatched immediately.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Reports are now that the shot man was one of the attempted bombers from yesterday, he was being followed by plain clothes police and ran, didn't stop when told to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 But 5 times in the head? This looks like an RUC-style execution to me. It appears that (according to the eyewitness Mark Whitby) that he was shot 5 times in the head by a single left-handed plain-clothes officer, whilst lying on the ground. I wonder if they will find a bomb on him, or is wearing an inappropriate coat illegal, now.I am so glad that I am away from that.. words fail me ..... place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 [quote]So you shoot a suicide bomber in the leg - and he lets the bomb go - think about it for a minute...[/quote]OK... Fair enough... Still whatever questions they would have had for him will remain unanswered...I am just no good with all this shooting lark. You will never make me watch a gun-ho-happy-trigger film such as the Terminator and all that similar lot... Too much of a sensitive soul! However I understand that in this instance it could not be helped.Sad times!... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I'm sorry words fail you, Nick, but unless they have made a terrible mistake (and it seems that they haven't) I feel a bit safer because of that. How do we treat people who kill innocent travellers, then? This is the real world and this particular bit of nastiness is being inflicted on us by people who want to destroy the freedoms we have struggled for over the last thousand years. Squeamishness is not a luxury we have time to have at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I know that there are people killed by the police in the UK. But here it is quite a regular occurence especially if you're a beur and considered to be where you shouldn't be. In this case in London today, any doubt take them out. What else can the police do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P> Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 You can not shoot bombers now. I mean they are going to die anyway its better they get shot and I dont care if they begging for mercy they all want shooting quickly before they pill there I remember when Maggie sent the boys from the SAS into the embassy in London and shot the lot (bar one) not long after there was another siege something to do with a spaghetti house she let it known to the villains she was going to send the lads in again and guess what they all came out with there hands up no PC has gone too far when you can not shoot bombers did anyone see the interview with the guy responsible for the safety of London he said be extra vigilant of people with coloured skin the reporter nearly had kittens and told him so but he should by what he said I believe that the more atrocities that happen the more PC that will go out of the wind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopy Lou Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I was born and brought up in London and now live just outside the M25 not far from Heathrow. The situation in London has become much more jittery since yesterday's and today's events. I hold no brief for extremists of any persuasion and would rather the world was rid of them - but, and it's a big but, I am afraid that individual citizens' rights and freedoms are being steadily and seriously curtailed and attacked not just by security measures (which are of course necessary at this time) but by the way that society is being moulded by the "powers that be" and by PCness.If young men cannot travel around London in peaked caps and jackets wearing rucksacks to carry their possessions without being roughly treated by the police and security personnel - the "shoot now, ask questions later if you have managed not to kill the lad" mind-set - making them get on the ground and not listening to them properly, the whole of London is becoming a terrifying place to be. Imagine if it was your son.My immediate reaction to the news of the shooting this morning was "oh God, what if he was innocent?" but I am praying that these policemen knew who he was, realised he was one of the people they were searching for and,anyway, he ran away, but according to the reports he was shot at extremely close range when he was already on the floor. We may be used to bombs in London, sadly, but we are not used to our police shooting to kill like that.It's no wonder people are not flocking to London for their holidays, especially if the US news inflates the danger.We live in interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peebee Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 If the police had any suspicion that this guy was carrying explosives they had no choice but to shoot him in the head. If he had been maimed i.e shot in the leg or arm, he could still have detonated any bomb he had on him, it would have only taken a split second. We would then be on here saying ' Why didn't they shoot to kill'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted July 22, 2005 Author Share Posted July 22, 2005 If young men cannot travel around London in peaked caps and jackets wearing rucksacks to carry their possessions without being roughly treated by the police and security personnel - the "shoot now, ask questions later if you have managed not to kill the lad" mind-set - making them get on the ground and not listening to them properly, the whole of London is becoming a terrifying place to be. Imagine if it was your son.The security forces in London are doing an extremely difficult and dangerous job to keep us all as safe as possible and anyone with nothing to hide must surely welcome any security measures or checks at these difficult times. I don't understand what you mean by being "roughly treated", or have I missed something? Police officers do NOT just shoot anybody unless they are an IMMEDIATE THREAT. As for your last sentence, well imagine if this morning's victim had managed to commit an atrocity and killed your son - would you still have the same attitude? If it wasn't for the fantastic work being done by our forces there would have certainly been more atrocities so please give them a break!To correct a small but important point that seems to have been exagerrated a bit here, the two or three comments about the victim being shot in the head 5 times, I think if you listen to the main eyewitness report by Mark Witby, he doesn't actually mention that the five shots were fired in the head, only five shots were fired into him. There is a news briefing in a few minutes, so maybe we will learn more. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Dordogne Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I've been watching this on the BBC with great interest as many of us probably have.I was at the Spaghetti House (with the good guys) and remember what happened there very well. I also did a few spells in places where carrying a weapon was a matter of routine for police officers who (including me) would have and often did use them.Unlike many of my ex-colleagues I don't believe in the death penalty except in very extreme cases but two weeks ago I found myself changing my mind.It's ok commenting on this from afar, we're not actually there on the ground having to deal with all this. My old Dad used to have a very simple philosphy on all this sort of thing - if people think that they are soldiers and fighting a war, if they are casualties, that is their decision, soldiers, in uniform and out of it, expect to get killed.If these bombers - and I'm assuming that the guy killed this morning was being immediately pursued and was a threat to life - want to do this sort of thing they take the consequences.Shooting to disable isn't enough - if he had triggered a device and another 50 people had been killed, we'd have complained about that also. And if he had been shot through the body, that may have detonated explosives he was carrying.I am a political liberal, I worry about human rights, fairly left wing etc etc and also worry about what your UK government is doing to the law in the UK. But I also think - from what we know and we must all remember that we're making suppositions here - that the police acted in the only way they could, they have probably saved lives doing what they did today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I think it's been widely enough publicised now that suicide bombers will probably be carrying a bag/rucksack of some kimd, or tend to be dressed in clothes possibly unsuitable for the weather, that anyone who innocently fits this description would most certainly not run away from the police and not stop when told to whilst the capital is on such high security alert. When I was commuting in London, especially in the summer, the underground was full of travelling students who would fit this description, so it's obviously an extremely sad state of affairs that young Asian men are going to be under more suspicion than their white counterparts but it's something that they are going to have to live with for the time being, the same as the rest of London are having to live with the fear of possibly not getting safely to or from work each day!A couple of the TV news interviewers have been trying to suggest that the police were being a bit heavy handed, but this guy must have been under surveillance or he wouldn't have been chased by plain clothes gun carrying policemen.I agree with those that say that a shooting in the arm or leg is no good if he's a potential suicide bomber. Just imagine what would have been said had it come out that he WAS under surveillance/suspicion, was being chased by the police and yet STILL managed to detonate his bomb and kill innocent bystanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopy Lou Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 Please don't get me wrong. I am completely on the side of the police and security services and agree totally that, because of the situation in London at the moment, what might be seen to be extreme measures have to be taken. Of course, if the police think there is an immediate danger of a suicide bomber setting off his bomb, they have to shoot to kill. It was just my first reaction - what if he was innocent. Obviously, because he ran away and was wearing very odd clothing for the weather, the police felt justified in killing him. We don't have the full background.It is just very unsettling being in the UK and near London at the moment. My youngest child is travelling to New York today, and I am feeling rather nervous for her, but I would not stop her going. Life has to continue. So I agree with most of you, but it would be worrying if all our police ended up having to be armed in in the UK as a result of all this terrorism. How will we know if/when it is over, I wonder. They are certainly the norm in our airports now. Better safe than sorry, but will we be sorry anyway?As I said, we live in interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 I am all for the Gandhi attitude "lie down, the horses will not step on you".But here, extreme action unfortunately needs an extreme reply, and is perhaps the only way... hoping that there will never be a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 or is wearing an inappropriate coat illegal, now.If "inappropriate" equates to "packed with explosives", then yes.I am so glad that I am away from that.. words fail me ..... place.So what country has these perfect police who manage to keep law and order while never using force of any kind, or never making a mistake? Wait till you see how often the CRS (riot police) are deployed in France! Every one a teddy bear! Dicksmith, your orders are to keep on posting. You are not allowed to not-post for any extended period of time without warning us first. We want no extra worry, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 But Sal - I'm off to France tomorrow!It's all pretty quiet here at the moment, although people interviewed on Sky seem to be a bit miffed that policemen keep shouting at them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 It is only in Holywood westerns where the sherif can shoot the gun out of a baddies hand. I have enormous sympathy for those who protect us who have to make snap decisions in circumstances that the rest of us are lucky never to be in. As Col Tom Collins wrote earlier this week, it is easy for those in the safety of their cozy offices to second guess those in the front line. The most recent report I have seen says the suspected bomber was wearing a bulky long coat in hot sultry weather. Would you take a chance when there is a tube train full of passengers at risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 But Sal - I'm off to France tomorrow!Thank you, that counts as advance warning! Bon voyage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 22, 2005 Share Posted July 22, 2005 [quote]But Sal - I'm off to France tomorrow! Thank you, that counts as advance warning! Bon voyage![/quote]Well I hope he has told his local that he will be away, one they will worry where he is and two, they will need to order less sherbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Zero tolerance, shoot to kill, and good riddance to bad rubbish, ( the country doesnt need to be paying for these people to sit in our prisons). Shame they didnt get him before he got on the train, a few chips to the concrete platform would be much easier to repair than the holes in the carriage floor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 Whilst I have no sympathy whatsoever for individuals who engage in terrorist activities, and do fully support those who continue to try and lead a normal life in London and other cities, I cannot help but feel that instructions to shoot suspected bombers in the head is a bit like re-introduction of the death penalty without any trial, no jury, no independent assessment of evidence, etc.Also, shooting to kill does not necessarily disable a bomber as I guess they could be using “hair triggers” where, once activated, a release of pressure will detonate (e.g. if shot).However, I’m afraid I can offer no answers to the problem that London now finds itself in, particularly as time cannot be rewound and decisions re-made retrospectively.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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