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The winter of my discontent.


Logan
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And Russethouse it would be an exceptional salary in France.

If anyone thinks that ethnic minorities are not picked out for special treatment by the cops in France, they are. The difference is that the cops in France have always been able to stop any of us.

 

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And Russethouse it would be an exceptional salary in France.

If anyone thinks that ethnic minorities are not picked out for special treatment by the cops in France, they are. The difference is that the cops in France have always been able to stop any of us.

 

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Alcazar - thought your post most interesting. Basically, all these laws that were trotted out to "defend freedom" always had the potential to be misused, but of course "only the guilty would have anything to fear." In this case, it would seem, expressing political opinions contary to the current regime now constitute "harrassment" and this in an arrestable offence. I always feel my freedom being enhanced by the number of CCTV cameras I appear on whenever I visit the UK too.

My main worry about the state of the UK economy (and 50% of our client base is from the UK, so I think that I need to be concerned about the state of the UK economy) is the staggering amount of personal debt that has been acquired over the past couple of decades. Worse, this debt has been the engine of growth behind the service economy that has filled the gap left by traditional manufacturing. 17,000 pounds of debt per head of population - not so much less than the average wage in the UK - just does not look sustainable. Now people are making some effort to cut expenditure (and credit card debt) and very quickly half the retaillers on the high street are issuing panicked statements about tough trading conditions - this does not bode well. Many of the UK's European competitors do not have the same culture of personal debt.

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"17,000 pounds of debt per head of population "

And what does Prudence Brown do about it ? There is an easy first step to solving it - by increasing the minimum monthly repayment on credit cards from 5 or is it 3% to 33 or better still 50%. When reading how well the UK economy is doing why do I think of "The Emperor's new clothes" ?

As regards the future of France - our greatest fear for 2006 is lack of water so we need some of Guatemala's rain, not all, just some PLEASE.

John

not

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"17,000 pounds of debt per head of population "

And what does Prudence Brown do about it ? There is an easy first step to solving it - by increasing the minimum monthly repayment on credit cards from 5 or is it 3% to 33 or better still 50%. When reading how well the UK economy is doing why do I think of "The Emperor's new clothes" ?

As regards the future of France - our greatest fear for 2006 is lack of water so we need some of Guatemala's rain, not all, just some PLEASE.

John

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Jond, as you say retailers are now upset about the drop in business as people realise they have rather excessive debt. Retailers are not pushing for a cut in interest rates so people can be more confident and borrow even more (though I guess it is fortunate that they have little say in the matter). I also believe that the UK personal debt is unsustainable and that part of reducing it is for people to live a bit more economically (maybe even within their means ?). The situation cannot go on and does need resolving and, as retailers are beginning to see, it will hurt.

Trouble is that if repayments increased credit card companies would make less money (and they would not accept that). If interest rates were increased then the retailers would start getting upset and the number of defaulters/bankrupts/repossessions would start increasing, etc.

Maybe the “free market” does have some benefits but it also has/causes some problems (or maybe its just greed and/or lack of self control that causes the problems)

Ian

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Hello

I am personnaly all for putting a lot more credit laden plastic into the froggies sweaty little hands it would allow them to buy a lot more nice shinney goods (pref from my company). When I had a business in the uk clients would offer a card which was sometimes refused but they would just shrug and pull another one out. It was great all you had to do was get their taste buds going and bingo they had the means to pay.

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High levels of personal debt have been a feature of the US economy for decades. Indeed the US government is deeply in the red. The key issue with debt is sustainablity. Debt is fine provided it can be serviced comfortably. A major factor is flexibility in the economy and in particular the financial service industry. The ability to move debt easily from one place to another to reduce cost is just one example of my meaning.

Flexibility and sustainablity are major features of US and UK economies. France, and some other EU countries on the other hand are almost the opposite. They grind on with outdated philosophies of protectionism, patronage and deference to hierarchical structures.

An example. 

In France it's considered almost treasonous to question the opinions of professionally qualified people. In truth, my local doctor and vet are almost bordering on the incompetent. Yet to question their judgement provokes outrage. That attitude persists throughout France. It's a direct product of the cultural system. Changing cultural values takes generations. I have not enough time left to wait.

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Likewise. £800 (monthly) does me pretty well (including improvement materials, flying, etc. – though this will probably go up when I start converting an attic) and I’m very happy with my lifestyle. Maybe I’m not extravagant but certainly I live a lot cheaper in France than in the UK and I don’t not do anything because of limited funds.

Ian
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Logan - I agree that a servicable level of debt is not an issue, either for an individual, company or nation state. Frequently it is desirable. My contention is that the level of debt seen in the UK is at a point approaching unservicable. The same may be true of the US - I don't know that economy at all well, only what I read in the papers.

At the moment, consumer spending in the UK is being curtailled by, amongst other factors, a moderate oil price shock (relative to the 70's, anyway). Two months only of reduced spending in the highstreet and the whole edifice starts to wobble. That is NOT indicative of a sustainable level of debt. The Bank of England has virtually no room for movement - drop rates and inflation rises, raise rates and bankrupcies spiral. What's a boy to do?

My opinion, for what it is worth - Totally libralised free markets will always fail through lack of discipline: markets controlled solely by the state will always fail through stagnation. There is a middle ground. Its instructive to look at those clamouring for "libralisation" of European markets - mostly it seems to be those already scenting trouble: the UK, US and the big banking corporations that stand to loose a fortune unless they can get their hands on some juicy state-owned enterprises to suppliment their incomes PDQ.
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What an interesting discussion, I do hope that the original poster finds that he can now settle in the UK - we are still living there and things have changed so much since 1997. There has been an abundance of  'free money' about, that has enabled folk to have more or less what they wanted BEFORE they have actually earned the money - but it's now all looking very shaky and out of control.

http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debtstats.htm

Sorry that the article is so long. It's going to be very interesting watching Mr Brown wriggle out of his own straight-jacket and still come out smiling!?

As regards France, there seems to be a much healthier attitude and respect towards money there - but as everyone else has said making ends meet in France is not easy to do.

 

 

 

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<<< It's going to be very interesting watching Mr Brown wriggle out of his own straight-jacket and still come out smiling!?>>>

Yeah, except that he isn't goinng to is he? They're already laying plans for him to bail out and become PM when TBLiar bails out to live on his huge pension and his memoirs

Then, nothing that went before will be/have been his fault.

Rather like Blunkett, who PROMISED to resign if the standards didn't rise to a certain level in education, and when they didn't......... he didn't either! And why not? Because he was no longer in charge of education so it didn't count.

Lying Labour.........and we've voted this lot in THREE times!

Alcazar

 

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"...Lying Labour.........and we've voted this lot in THREE times!"

Says an awful lot about the opposition doesn't it ! "We" means you I take it ?

That being the case, it seems rather strange to still see people call the PM, TBliar. I can only surmise it started out, as simply just another red top headline grabber, which although failing to work at election time, some pretty sad folks like to use it often, even though it's been done to death and now probably means sod all to anyone. In fact, my Mrs not too concerned with politics, thought that it was his name and never saw any switch in letters, so the common use has now been totally lost in familiarity

What I also find pretty weird, is that barely anyone admitted to voting for Maggie and the same thing is now happening to Mr Blair...I wonder if all the Brits who have gained massive profits on their homes would swap their lot for good old John Major still being in power ?

And yes I know what some died in the wool blues will say,"it would have happened anyway" In which case it just goes to show that as far as Labour is concerned for some people, it was always going to be a no win period, if it went bottom up "I told you so" and if like the last 8 years or so with healthy growth and the Bank of England being given the reins with the base rate, one can easily say, "Well, we gave them the start they needed"

Just like the Beatles in their heyday as well, best not admit they ain't too bad at times eh. Fickle lot the Brits !!

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just for those interested,my lad is 23 got a wife two kids,works for his self floor screeding and finds work for two labourers ,he pays the tax man and nat insurance pays work insurance runs a van pays the accountant ect,one person says he could borrow145 grand,wouldnt buy him a great deal really and if the old government mucks up completly and intrest rates double weres that leave him,hes already working and travelling 12 hours a day probably just get a part time job as well eh
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I was doing some arithmetic and I reckon the guy who did some garden work for us must be on £800 weekly at least, he does 'hard landscaping' for want of a better description, he is not a horticulturist. The chap who helped us clear the garden and dig the pond was £100 per day plus a further £100 each for any help he had to employ.

We recently asked for a quote for rewiring our house and ball park was £2500 - £3500, possibly 8 - 10days in total (although he will spend sometime doing a detailed check before he gives us a proper quote, so some where along the line that has to be paid for.)

Like hardhats son all these guys are legal and run proper businesses, I think at least one is Ltd because it was made attractive for them to go that route and be legal, rather than work illegally and have to 'dice about'.

As far as TB liar is concerned we have debated him many times here. After the party conferences I just hope that the Liberals either get behind Charles Kennedy or ditch him and that David Cameron gets a chance to lead the Conservatives, because I (agree with most political commentators who think that we get a better government when we have a strong opposition.

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Many interesting replies.

I think the conflict between economic opportunity and "spending more time with the family still holds good."

Britain gives you the opportunity, France allows you quality time with the family.

I am now getting on a little in years. I have been lucky enough to have lived both scenarios to the full. France is a wonderful country in which to live out quality time. However I was able to live and enjoy that because I provided for myself from a working life in Britain. France is altogether different. I have battled for almost 20 years and have economically remained exactly the same. I have contributed to the coffers of the French state and have at least the satisfaction of doing my bit to keep France alive. I have enjoyed France and France has enjoyed me.

I intend my later years to be a little easier and contribute smaller amounts to the well being of Britain. I think France will manage without me!

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<<I think the conflict between economic opportunity and "spending more time with the family still holds good."

Britain gives you the opportunity, France allows you quality time with the family. >>

Oh yes, Britain gives you the opportunity...............they pay VERY basic wages, then "allow" you to work as many hours as you like to make a "decent" take home pay.

Like the lads in the DFS warehouses.......last Christmas, management "allowed" them to work in excess of 80 hours a week in the three weeks up to Christmas. All at standard time for the first 40 hours, and then time and A THIRD for everything over 40 hours. Great take home, but wait.........who ARE these people living in my home? Oh yes, I remember, they are my wife and kids

Meanwhile, Lord Somebody-Or-Other, who OWNS DFS, has just bought his THIRD Van Gogh.

Economic opportunity? Oh yes

Alcazar

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Logan, I'm not sure how long you've been away from these shores but if it's more than a couple of years you're in for a rude awakening.

The horrendous traffic jams, the litter strewn streets, the stupid house price rises and the prospect of extended drinking hours are enough to make anyone leave the country.

Go into any town or city throughout the land early in the morning and you will see the rubbish strewn vomit covered urine soaked streets and that alone will probably make you regret ever leaving France.

Ps. - I live in central England - ever considered a house swop just to see if you like it back in the UK?.

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"....The horrendous traffic jams, the litter strewn streets, the stupid house price rises and the prospect of extended drinking hours are enough to make anyone leave the country"

Sounds just like the area of West Londoon I was born and bred, I am glad it hasn't changed too much then, although I was thinking last time I was back just how it had gone all yuppy, lots of decent pubs and restos and altogether, a little lah de dah, we rather liked it actually.

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Give what time?

 

Are some evil monsters going to come and get me?

Dear me, I am moving back to a town from the countryside. If I were moving into a french town from the countryside I would be use my common sense.

But dear me, if you are that peureux, vas 'y vas 'y, fuir into la campagne perdue, nulle part and live in the illusion of perfect security, for nowhere is.

Or try Villeurbanne in Lyons, see if you could feel a little more than simply frightened there, or the cite Olympic in Grenoble. Really nice places, both.

 

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