Sneaking?

[Davies]

Sorry if this comes over as holier-than-thou, it's certainly not meant to;

    If someone thinks; "I'll get away with this as long as no one reports me to the authorities", then perhaps they should not be suprised if some disagree.

  

[Viv]

[quote]Sorry if this comes over as holier-than-thou, it's certainly not meant to; If someone thinks; "I'll get away with this as long as no one reports me to the authorities", then perhaps they should n...[/quote]

Exactly.

If people want to take their chances fine.

But whatever happened to 'it's a fair cop guv? '

Now they would winge, complain it's not fair and want to punch the 'dobbers' lights out.

[Patf]

Btuckey - you can call me naive and you're probably right.So what? But I still think that if someone has nothing better to do than go round making a list of all out of date tax discs in a car park and sending it off to the police he must be a creep. That is, if the posting wasn't just a windup. Pat.

[Senrabbit]

I have a plaque which I used to hang on my study wall which read “Those who remain silent are said to consent”.  Often the problem with speaking up/out about something is that you tend to upset a few people along the way. Not too much of a problem if you believe what you are doing to be right.  The issue in the UK is that there appears to be little value in “doing the right thing” as when an offence is committed, the “person doing the right thing” often finds out that there is very little done by way of punishment.  My car was once blocked in by a road tax dodger. I had done 7 hours honest toil teaching and wanted to go home. The police didn’t want to know, passed it on to a newly established civilian dept, who didn’t want to know, but did manage to inform me of two things, firstly the car had 5 previous unpaid parking tickets and secondly, If I attempted to move the car myself, I would be committing a criminal offence.  My son is a police officer in the UK and works with his hands tied behind his back most of the time.  I think people (sorry Brits) in the main here in France think they are never going to get caught. For me/us we know the penalties for employing people on the black, (so we don’t do it), we made sure our car was “legal” here until we were able to re-register it. On the point of whether or not one should tell the authorities, all I can say is to my cost I have found that “doing the right thing” left me out of pocket, and to some tune, whilst nothing changed, therefore I would think twice now before reporting anyone.

[Russethouse]

>>>But I still think that if someone has nothing better to do than go round making a list of all out of date tax discs in a car park and sending it off to the police he must be a creep<<<

and if you discovered that the person had lost a spouse or child (or both) to an uninsured driver...would you still think the same ?

[Deimos]

[quote]>>>But I still think that if someone has nothing better to do than go round making a list of all out of date tax discs in a car park and sending it off to the police he must be a creep<<I believe the particular thread concerned (http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=293&MessageID=254122) was where somebody was saying they were reporting UK cars with UK registration plates, no car tax in a French port. As I understand the regulations, a UK registered car as around 3 months to register under the French vehicle registration. During that time it can continue to display UK registration plates but as it is not in the UK, has no requirement to have a valid UK tax disc displayed. All those cars at Caen were not necessarily breaking any law(s). There is no evidence to suggest they had no MOT, nothing to suggest they had no insurance, no laws were being broken. Thus, sending a letter to DVLA will serve only to waste the time of DVLA staff. Remember that when you next think car tax is too high or Swansea respond too slowly or the number of UK civil servants has increased excessively – there are time wasters around.

Fine, if a law was being broken then people are at liberty to report it – though I would suggest some common sense as to there being some reasonable chance of the authorities being able to act on your report otherwise again you are just wasting THEIR time.

In practice Swansea are now automated to the point where their computers tell them when a vehicles tax disk is out of date and the fine is then automatic (and significant) – nobody needs to see the vehicle and nobody needs to report it. Thus the vehicles are either due an automatic fine or have been declared off the UK roads (which they were !).

What is actually more likely is that they were beyond their 3 months (or whatever it is). However, the individual has no evidence that they had been in France more than 3 months.

Being a bit more realistic, of course the thread was a joke (as people are aware about laws, enforcement and the “automated fines” in the UK). Did people notice it is the posters first and only post. I would imagine mods have some ideas about who the poster really is (either a schizophrenic or a “leap in and stir it up” merchant).

Ian

[Patf]

Gay -out of date tax disc doesn't necessarily mean uninsured. I would have thought someone who had lost a relative in an accident would be more interested in having the killer arrested and tried than claiming off his insurance.Though I know many people do look for financial compensation.If you mean they have emotional reasons for doing it then yes it would be different. Pat.

[Russethouse]

>>out of date tax disc doesn't necessarily mean uninsured<<

We have debated this before here and it is still my understanding that after a short period (14 days I think) in most cases not having a tax disc renders your car uninsured in the UK at least.

I have posted about this before and don't want to go on 'ad nauseum' but its a long process to get compensation for someone killed or injured when there is no insurance as you have go through the industry board for uninsured loss - from memory there is no such safety net in France but its a long time since this has been discussed here so I could be wrong.

As for having the killer arrested I think the chances of a hit and run are far greater when the car owners are missing the vital paperwork.

[Jc]

The 14 day "period of grace" was taken away last century.Your policy(not the certificate) requires the vehicle to be in a roadworthy and legal condition for the insurance to be valid.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]I believe the particular thread concerned (http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=293&MessageID=254122) was where somebody was saying they were reporting UK cars with UK registration p...[/quote]

Ian

Agree with most of what you are saying but the DVLA computer cannot "see" cars being used on the road that have been declared off it by SORN.  If the DVLA do not want to know about un taxed cars then they should withdraw their on - line reporting facilty.  What you have not considered is that the tax dodger now declares his car off the road but uses it, it is those the DVLA wants reporting.  If they are in France for three months or have been SORN'd after arriving in France, that is legal as they are not on UK roads where road tax applies, but you know and I know that a fair few of those cars at Caen will be taken back to the UK and driven, or used illegally in France when the owners come back for them.

From the details of five UK plated carrs here I know of, one is French legal but on UK plates, another is UK legal ( crazy as the owner lives here 100%)  the other three are untaxed and have no MOT's or French CT or insurance, so I think it a fair assumption that some of those Caen cars will be used in France illegally,  don't you?

[Will]

"or have been SORN'd after arriving in France, that is legal as they are not on UK roads where road tax applies"

Not wishing to be pedantic, but I should point out in case anybody is thinking that making a SORN declaration is OK for vehicles being used in France this is, to say the least, a moot point. SORN stands for 'statutory off road notification' and many people interpret this, through the definitions in DVLA material, as being a declaration that the vehicle is not being used on public roads anywhere, not just in Britain. The correct procedure is to notify DVLA of export, using the tear-off portion of the V5C, or pre-V5C by obtaining an export certificate.

If the vehicles at Caen ferryport are taken back to Britain their drivers will not get beyond Portsmouth port before being stopped - tax discs being something that is visually checked at passport and customs control, with a non-existent or out of date disc immediately arousing more general suspicions. Judging by the condition of many of the vehicles left at Caen I doubt if they have been anywhere since their road tax expired anyway. I am currently travelling on that particular route very frequently (five times each way in Oct and Nov) so am well acquainted with the situation.

[Deimos]

[quote]Ian Agree with most of what you are saying but the DVLA computer cannot "see" cars being used on the road that have been declared off it by SORN. If the DVLA do not want to know about un taxed cars ...[/quote]

There are also (in addition to Will’s points) automatic number plate readers at the ferry ports reading vehicles number plates.

What might be a fair assumption will not stand up in court and cannot be used by DVLA to prosecute. Ignoring the fact that the particular thread was IMHO (which apparently means In My Humble Opinion) a windup, everybody has their own thresholds as to what they will “report” and each to their own. However, reporting cars on foreign roads to DVLA can serve no purpose as they are beyond the control of DVLA. The report that they were seen parked in an overseas ferry port were assumed to have either no insurance or maybe no MOT or maybe no tax or maybe some combination of these does not enable DVLA to do anything (fair assumption or otherwise) – but does waste their time having to open, read, etc..

Ian

[Russethouse]

I can't remember the exact circumstances but I seem to remember around this time last year a lady here pleading for help because they were being required to go back to the UK, at their own expense, and appear in court for non payment of road fund.

Make sure you either keep up the tax and all that it involves or export the car, do not just fall in the middle. If you speak to anyone at the DVLA either get them to confirm in writing (they don't like doing this) or at the very least make a note of the persons name and dept, date and time.

[Georgina]

"  If you speak to anyone at the DVLA either get them to confirm in writing (they don't like doing this) or at the very least make a note of the persons name and dept, date and time. "

Have you tried getting through?The DVLA are a bunch of imcompetents IMO. It makes me so mad having to deal with these idiots, you have to ring them when they make a mistake or ignore your letters but it does not matter to them, 'cos they win, they just send you a fine.  I have sent my export certificate from my log book and six weeks later, still not got an acknowledgement despite contacting them three times. Does anyone know if I can register my car with the prefecture without this confirmation?

Georgina

[Georgina]

Sorry, whilst on my box, have you read those derisory fines they give the uninsured, untaxed and don't intend to's - only a lot less than their actual insurance would have cost them.  You see a long list of them in local papers in the UK - why bother getting insurance when the fine is much less?

Georgina

[suein56]

Georgina

I emailed DVLA after not being able to get any info via the phone regarding our tax disc refunds and the reply came the next morning. Things are now progressing much quicker to a, hopefully, satisfactory conclusion - fingers crossed

So, have a go - email them!

Sue

[Georgina]

Thanks yes that's what I did, got a standard confirmation that I will receive a reply in 3 days, and after one week, guess what, no reply. I did actually telephone them yesterday to be told that they don't send replies but they had dealt with my letter asking them to send a reply

Georgina