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Sneaking?


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Following up the opening post in Vehicles in France entitled lawbreakers with no road tax, which, if not a windup, I personally found just plain nasty, I was wondering under what circumstances others might think it appropriate to report people to the relevant authorities for whatever? This issue is not unimportant in France (as opposed to the UK despite Blair's best efforts) which is probably the world leader in 'sneaking', encouraged often by the powers that be who wish to keep a close eye on everything and everybody- a historical legacy I suspect. Examples might range from reporting serious crimes to 'telling on' someone working on the black.

I would also like to try to discover what personal morality permits such behaviour. One clue, in lawbreakers with no road tax, seems to suggest that 'If I conform others must be made to do so'. Interesting implications that.

And would you behave differently in France from the UK?

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I was thinking of asking this question not long ago. Although I tend to think that informers are the lowest of the low ( and i think this applies to the no road tax story) I can think of situations where it might be justified to report someone. Especially if whatever they are doing affects me and mine to our disadvantage. But first it would be important to warn the person. For example if someone working on the black is taking away your own business customers. This question cropped up in a much more serious way during WW2 when there was informing against Resistance workers, Jews etc to the occupying German forces. I believe there are still family feuds in many towns and villages in France as a result of this. I wonder if the same thing would have happened in the UK if we had been occupied? To be realistic, I think it probably would. So who would be to blame - the informers themselves or the perpetrators of the vicious restrictive system which openly encourages informing? Another example would be the communist witchunt in the USA in the 1950s. I don't think that France has the monopoly.Pat.
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I think it is difficult to define under what circumstances I might report people as to any situation there are so many variable factors (including maybe one’s own mood at the time).

I think I would probably behave differently in France (compared to the UK), more because of the practical difficulties caused by my language limitations and lack of familiarity with the details (and maybe exceptions that are not relevant to myself) in the current regulations. Were it not for this I can think of no reason to behave differently.

(I also saw the other thread and think it was a windup).

Ian
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I have done it in France. I officially complained about someone and I caused quite a hoo haa. Some friends of mine told me that I had been wrong and they were against me for doing it. Others usually people I am a quick chat terms with had strange reactions and would feel quite free to criticise or make comments to me about what I had done and even about what happened at the meeting I held, even though they were not there, BUT someone had spoken to someone who had been there and told them and so they knew better than me.

I had known that it existed by what did surprise me was the general chacun pour soi attitude that so many people I knew had.

Sometimes in this life things are just plain wrong and I can't remember that expression about if good men won't speak up or out or something like that. But I had to speak out and would do it again.

If that doesn't make much sense, well sorry that is what I end up with when I don't want to go into great detail.

 

There are some things I would always report to the authorities. Others well, it would be au fur et a mesure.

 

 

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TU - I think that you refer to

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

That quote from Edmund Burke in "Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents" has, in general use, come to be delivered as, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

We all operate dual standards - making private telephone calls at work, using the office franking machine for the odd letter or few etc are seen as acceptable but taking a handful out of the petty cash tin is not.

Those who evade payment of their taxes etc are stealing from the rest of us. I don't know the circs under which I would report A.N.Other but I'm sure that there are some. It is a sad reflection of life today that the lawbreaker is looked up to or at least tacitly accepted whereas the law abiding majority are not. Witness the denigrating title of this thread.

John

not

 

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Hi TU

Maybe it's this one:

First they came for the Jews but I did not speak out because I was not a Jew

Then they came for the Communists but I did not speak out because I was not a Communist

They they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for me ........... and there was nobody left to speak out.

Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer, Protestante Pastor in Germany, when they came for him they made sure he didn't speak out, he was executed in 1944 for leading passive resistance to the Nazis.

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Interesting.

  Are 'grassers' despised by the criminal fraternity because of high moralistic ideals or are they despised because they foil the criminals' chances of getting away with their crimes?

   In other words, is labelling someone a sneak, often simply a convenience for the transgressor?

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There are so many of these 'expressions' aren't there. 

And of course it would always depend on the circumstances, always.

 

But when it boils down to it, I know that in certain circumstances I have to stand up and have my say no matter the consequences.

 

And back to the cheats/rogues. Can't think of a good expression for them, maybe I should have a little look at Sarkozy's recent repertoire which has been rather colourful and see if I can find something.  Because if this thread is called sneaking, well would we even be discussing it if certain people were not cheats/rogues.

My feeling is that no one was forced to move to a foreign country and once one has freely chosen such a move then obeying that country's laws is least one can do.

 

 

 

 

 

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Actually it is

First they came for the Communists,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn’t speak up,

because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one

left to speak up for me.

by Pastor Martin Niemoller.
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So when is a crime not a crime?

Is not paying insurance/tax on a vehicle and working on the black acceptable here?

Would you turn the other cheek if you saw a burgler taking your neighbours goods as he is obviously just 'making a living'?

So you would not tell eh? Although would you not be the first to kick up a fuss should it be your trade being affected by travail noir or your car hit by an uninsured driver.

Sneaking? The Jews where innocent where as uninsured drivers are criminals.

Keep it in touch here. Its not going to lead to the genocide of anygroup of people.

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Pastor Niemoller lived until the ripe old age of 92, eventually dying in 1984 having campaigned for peace and reconciliation for the rest of his life. And there are several versions of his famous poem though it is doubtful if he ever wrote it in poem form. The version I prefer is

First they came for the communists,
I did not speak out
because I was not a communist.

When they came for the social democrats,
I did not speak out
because I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists
I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

 

I agree with the moral dilemma about dropping people in it - even the vocabulary is difficult, but what about 'let he who is perfect cast the first stone'?

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We've had experience of that, Zeb. Soon after we arrived husband decided to move the gas tank with help of a friend's tractor. Our nearest neighbour reported us in writing to the Maire, to Totalgas and to the gendarmes. We got a few good "tellings off" and had to pay to get it all legally sorted.Fair enough, we made a mistake. I went to see our neighbour later as I don't like falling out with people. She said "Well I knew you shouldn't move it yourself but everyone in the village said I was wrong to report you." She's a Parisian by the way, not a local I'm still very wary of her. Pat.
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Surely there's a difference between reporting one person's illegal activity and speaking up against the immoral behaviour of a gang or political group?

There's a huge difference, too, between speaking up against racial or political persecution, and contributing to it by shopping jews or communists to the Nazis.

Everyone likes to think he would have spoken up - but most had the welfare of wives and families to consider. It's not a choice many of us would like to be faced with, so it's reasonable to feel some sympathy for those who felt they had to remain silent. None whatever, of course for the despicable informers.

I still don't understand why Dick would inform on people who spell badly or wear unpolished shoes

Patrick
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Dick surely does not go far enough. Let us add people with long hair, brown skin, of Anglo Saxon origin and who bring all their building materials from abroad and do the work themselves which means they must be employing unregistered labour. And who drive 4x4's!

The best way to protect yourself is to find your neighbours' guilty secrets before you indulge in illegal activity. How? Ask the other neighbour over a few jars, but in a low conspiratorial voice. This is the main advantage of learning French of course!

But the whole spying thing has a good side too: after the great New Year storm a few years ago, the postmen in our local commune went round to every vulnerable resident and checked how they were, what their needs might be etc. Even carried some essential supplies for a few days - rabbit food, medicines etc.

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As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,

I've got a little list--I've got a little list

Of society offenders who might well be underground,

And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!

There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs--

All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs--

All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat--

All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like _that_--

And all third persons who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist--

They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed!

CHORUS. He's got 'em on the list--he's got 'em on the list;

And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of

'em be missed.

There's the banjo serenader, and the others of his race,

And the piano-organist--I've got him on the list!

And the people who eat peppermint and puff it in your face,

They never would be missed--they never would be missed!

Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,

All centuries but this, and every country but his own;

And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy,

And who "doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to

try";

And that singular anomaly, the lady novelist--

I don't think she'd be missed--I'm sure she'd not he missed!

CHORUS. He's got her on the list--he's got her on the list;

And I don't think she'll be missed--I'm sure

she'll not be missed!

And that Nisi Prius nuisance, who just now is rather rife,

The Judicial humorist--I've got him on the list!

All funny fellows, comic men, and clowns of private life--

They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed.

And apologetic statesmen of a compromising kind,

Such as--What d'ye call him--Thing'em-bob, and

likewise--Never-mind,

And 'St--'st--'st--and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who--

The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.

But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,

For they'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be

missed!

CHORUS. You may put 'em on the list--you may put 'em on the list;

And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of

'em be missed!

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[quote]I was thinking of asking this question not long ago. Although I tend to think that informers are the lowest of the low ( and i think this applies to the no road tax story) I can think of situations wh...[/quote]

Pleeeze… Well, I have to agree with Coprolite on this one (“So you would not tell eh? Although would you not be the first to kick up a fuss should it be your trade being affected by travail noir or your car hit by an uninsured driver”).  People in the UK without valid road tax are uninsured by definition.  How would you feel if a member of your family were killed on the road without any chance of adequate compensation?  Patf’s contribution above demonstrates breathtaking naivety.  Insurance costs in the UK are bumped up by around £40 per year for every driver to cover accidents involving the non-insured.  This is/was coming out of your pocket! (Assuming you were insured of course…)  I know we tend to sometimes have a different view of the Gendarmes, but in the UK the Police are still the front line protectors against the criminals.  Expecting them to do their job without public cooperation is ridiculous.

 

I have seen some daft threads in this forum over the years, but this one equating road tax evasion with the Holocaust takes the biscuit….  Come back ‘I,m in france’, the postings may have been b*llocks but at least they had some (perverse) logic!  

 

Brian     

 

 

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"CHORUS. He's got 'em on the list--he's got 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of
'em be missed."

Hi Dick,

But didn't the folks of Titipu have a way of silencing Katisha as she is about to grass on Nanki-Poo?

(End of Act 1)

 

Another Dave

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We could have dead letter boxes in the local town hall in which to post names of those working on the black or thieves or those that drive around in vehicles not complying with the law ( no insurance etc)

 

(Didn't the Italians have such a system a few hundred years ago?)

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Surely if the majority abide by a law ( eg Road tax) then by virtue of that fact, is is accepted as fair/ just/ right.

Accordingly, if I have to abide by such a law, then I do not feel that I am wrong in expecting others to do likewise.

If we all selected which laws we would/ would not abide, we would soon have anarchy.

I also suspect that if any person here attempted to give a "gipsies warning" to any such miscreant, they would receive a mouthful of abuse/ threats.

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