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"on the black"


Patf
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Someone we know, an english person, has been operating illegally as a builder for several years and has just been informed on to the gendarmes by a previous employee of his who was in trouble for another matter. They have started their investigations, and things look bad for him. I was wondering what will happen to his customers - what is their legal position? The only one I know about is a widow who could not cope with such problems. But this is the thing with working illegally - everyone else gets dragged down with you. I'm glad we didn't get involved - in our early days we didn't know about it being illegal and nearly had him do some work for us.  He is now going through all the procedure to get registered etc. Pat.
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I wonder if he has any paperwork referring to jobs completed etc with clients names on. If he was operating for cash he wouldn't have kept anything but if it was cheques,they would have had to be paid into a bank and they authorities can check back through his statements to see what has been paid in. His main problem now is if URSSAF, ASSEDIC,PROBTP and the CPAM get their claws into him and decide to go after all the years he was working without paying any sort of social charges - he could lose his home to pay the backlog. As regards customers, well I wouldn't like to be in their shoes as they know it is wrong to employ someone who is not registered and covered by insurance and health cover so they too may get dragged into the problem if the authorities decide to go further and make an example of him. I'm sorry but anyone working this way deserves all they get when caught out,why should they cream off the money and the genuine artisans pay huge charges that leave them with very little to live on.
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We live in an area with a lot of British people and most years I read in the paper about people working on the black being caught and having to go to court.

It must be very tempting for a British person unsure in French to work with someone who speaks their own language.  I can understand that.  The trouble is, these fly-by-nights are never to be found if something goes wrong. 

Much better to wait, and wait, and wait, for the 'village' artisan to fit you in.  Then, at least, you can go and bang on his door until he fixes things...or tell everyone he is rubbish.

Whatever, you win

A lot of these people working on the black don't seem to think it necessary to drive a French matriculated vehicle either....Pleeeeze!  Not obvious AT ALL.  Those old Grandmothers he passed on the way to his work were straight to the phone to speak to the gendarmerie.

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I am about to have some work carried out by a local man who was recommended to me. How do I know if he is registered? Do I really have to find out if he is registered and paying his tax surely that is his problem?

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Val 2 has summed this situation up perfectly.

Given the amount of information in French property magazines and websites there cannot be any purchasers of French property who are not aware of the perils of employing unregistered workers.

Sadly, many are happy to employ unregistered workers as they pay no TVA and the price for the work is lower as there are no social charges costed into the devis.

In a small commune close to us we have somebody registered as a gardener (which at least means they are paying some taxes), they are also carrying out major building work. From the income from this they are able to struggle to buy an Audi TT for personal use. In the same commune we have an ex-builder from the UK who is now operating a 'registered?' gite complex and also carrying out other building-related work including central heating installations.

There will always be people who are misguided enough to pay such people for inferior work.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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It is a question of insurance also paw862.  If he doesn't have insurance to cover himself in case of an accident, it will be you who has to pay.  What if he falls off your roof and breaks his back?

Just imagine the nightmare.

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[quote]I am about to have some work carried out by a local man who was recommended to me. How do I know if he is registered? Do I really have to find out if he is registered and paying his tax surely that is...[/quote]

You can make some checks on the web site http://www.cofacerating.fr/portail/recherche_entreprise_inter/recherche_entreprise.asp?IP=ECHOS

His quote should include his Siret No (or whatever)

Ian
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A first attempt to verify whether someone is registered can be made by entering their name on www.infobilan.com . If they come up click on their name as there is sometimes further information available.

There is no substitute for checking on previous work and clients and checking all the relevant paperwork (decennale, responsibile civile and carte d'identification).

If someone has been working illegally then the investigation will focus on the back tax and social charges due. The employer is only normally prosecuted if they have gone out of their way to find someone 'on the black'.

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I think it should be made plain that this is not the realm of just the English in France. I would go as far as to say that the amount of French (purely because there are more French than English in France funny enough) working on the black is far higher than the English.

We are all human and we all like to save money were ever possible. I doubt very much if there are very many people who use this forum and work in France who have not on a least one occasion paid in cash to avoid TVA which is just as bad as working on the black because however you cut it you are stealing. Stealing money that by law belongs to the state and this being France it belongs to us all so following this logic they are actually stealing from all of us.

Somebody mentioned "enterprising" which I take it was meant in relation to Entrepreneur’s (these floody fonts never work right) unfortunately although the French invented the word they seldom know what it means and it is to be deterred at any cost by the state. So in a way I actually agree with Albi but I do feel that he could have written it in not such an antagonistic and spiteful way.

However, don’t get me wrong, working on the black is illegal and means we all pay more tax to cover the short fall. I don’t believe people who have holiday homes here see it quite the same way as those of us who live here permanently because it does not hurt their pocket tax wise as much as it hurts us.

 

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Quillan speaks with wise words, especially on a hot Saturday afternoon.

I am lucky (?) to not know THAT many anglais, and those I do know are working in "proper" jobs.  OTOH, I do know that a fair number of my French friends and acquaintances do indulge in a little bit of travail noir on the side, mostly just to supplement a meagre income.

Actually, as an aside, for those of you who don't think there's a class system in operation in France, how many teachers/lawyers/doctors/etc do you know who indulge in travail noir in France?   I would think the answer is a number very close to zero, non?    Those who do tend to be what us Brits would call "working class", builders, etc.

Anyway, I do have a genuine question.  About insurance for anyone doing travail noir on your property.   Not that I intend to, it's just because I'm curieuse.   What exactly would happen if someone DID fall and break their back while fixing your roof?   Is it 100% certain that you would spend the rest of your life paying for their medical treatment, or would it depend on whether the y themselves decided to sue you for employing them in the first place?   The answer may well be in a previous post about intention.    

 

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I have to agree with Peter. I know many teachers who work on the black. I can't honestly think of any of my French friends who have not / do not hire work on the black. They all do - it is almost an art form of its own around here.... albeit only admitted in private circles.

I have always been curious as to what happens to the customer of someone working on the black. I did look for my French macon and plumber/electrician (also French) on the two websites noted on the forum and couldn't find them. Though I have seen their card credentials and noted siret numbers and they are always talking about the social charges they have to pay and the difficulties of hiring competent work staff. I know they are legal, but how far is a customer supposed to go to verify the data given to them?

Curious
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Peter and Lori, please consider "teachers" removed from my list!

Isn't it funny.  English lessons isn't something you see ads for here, even tho I'm not far from Peter.   I tried, I got one call from a woman well known for being tight, who didn't want to pay for one-to-one lessons, and one lad who was genuinely interested.   That's when we had about 1600 in the village.

About 4 or 5 miles away, in a village with over 2000 habitants, some American friends tried to do English legally through the foyer, put a lot of work into preparation of classes etc, then in spite of  advertising, having a stall at the foire des associations, and so on, they had to abandon it, because they got about 3 children sent along, and it just wasn't viable for so few.

C'est comme ça.

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When I first moved here I “put the word about” that I was looking for somebody to help me with my French language skills (paid for, not expecting free tuition). Not a professional “French as a foreign language” teacher but someone who maybe knew a bit of English (maybe not) who was patient and could assist me e.g. once a week with conversation, etc. Given that both local villages had primary schools I thought one of the teachers in one of those might have sought some extra income (legal or however) – but maybe the word never got there or maybe they didn’t because I’ve not found anybody.

I was at one point asked if I would give English lessons but actually declined (and directed them to somebody else I knew about). I declined not so much because of tax/”travail noir” but rather because languages (even English) is not one of my strengths and I have never taught so thought would be of little help.

Ian

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Why is it all the Brits who move over here feel the need to act as the gendarme.  It is the stupid french system that needs to change to help business owners.  There are just as many french working on the black.

I just checked infobilan and I am on there, but  by god I wish I wasnt I could afford to buy myself a nice car perhaps or perhaps afford to go out  for dinner.

 

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Its not the Brits that will 'play policeman' its the French artisans who sees their living as jeopardized that will 'inform'

Wouldn't you in their position ?

Not only that, when the dust has settled it may not only be the guilty Brit that suffers but the all the Brits in that area may be tarred with the same brush....that may be you!
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English lessons isn't something you see ads for here

Oh dearie dearie me, how much rubbish can one person talk in one day?   I've just fallen off my Union Jack lilo in shame at that uncharacteristically Anglo-centric moment.

There are of course other subjects than English, and yes, there are occasional offers of soutien scolaire.   How cheeky of them, offering travail noir in broad daylight, have they no fear? 

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It is very difficult for the French to escape the system completely as they have a social security number and are therefore 'pigeon holed' into employed, self employed or unemployed. Inevitably, as in the UK, there are those that sign on and work for cash.

It is generally accepted in France that teachers give lessons outside school and gardeners do a bit of grass cutting as a cash sideline.

There are, however, too many Brits. (and Dutch) who turn up here and think it's some kind of free-for-all. Working on the black puts the employer at risk on three counts:

1. If there is an accident on site the employer could be liable.

2. There is no invoice for the work, therefore no guarantee and nothing to put against capital gains tax in the event of sale.

3. The employer is at risk of prosecution for not checking the credentials of the employee. If, as the employer, you can show you were mislead ( eg photocopies of false papers) then it is unlikely that the Gendarmes will take it further.

I would be quite happy to shop someone I knew to be working entirely illegally, but I've never had to, because the local French Artisan get there first.

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To be honest there are a lot of English here who don't understand the system or how to check that their workmen are ligitimate, I know this because we have a lot of them stay with us prior to signing for their house and they don't generally have a clue about anything.

I don't think the English need to think of themseves as policemen as the French are very good at telling on people and don't need help from us. One should also remember that when it comes to the pecking order on who to tell on the Morocans come first followed by the English and then they finally turn on themselves. Indeed our French plumber went straight to the mayor when we took our first guest and told him we were putting the money in our pocket. His bad luck was that the day before we had been to see the mayor and he had arranged an appointment for us to visit the local tax office. The mayor then reminded the plumber that he didn't declare all his income either.

As far a teachers are concerned one only has the visit the 8 till Huit or the bakers to see adverts with tear off phone numbers for extra tuition in maths, geography etc and sometimes English although the latter will be English trying to make a bit on the side. I very much doubt if any of these declare this extra income to the tax man.

As far as French artisans are concerned they will also work on the black just as much as anyone else so I wouldn't hold them up as being whiter than white.

Anyway, there was an artical in a English speaking paper printed out of Nice about a guy breaking his leg working on the black and the persons who's house he was working on had to pay him 3 months wages so the tax and cotistations could be collected to pay for the hospital charges. Needless to say they didn't get any warranty on the work done either. This of course is another issue and a very good reason for not having large works done on the black. If it falls down in six months you have no warranty and you can't claim it of the house insurance either as you won't have a bill for the work.

So, to the original poster, yes you can end up paying for a person getting hurt when working on your house on the black. Should you use people on the black? well thats up to you, you know the score it's between you and your concience and nothing to do with me or anyone else. Just don't come to me if it goes tit's up thats all.

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Before we all start teacher bashing, let's get one thing clear, those advertising in the boulangerie are not qualified teachers. Real teachers, by which I mean those fully qualified to work in schools or universities are not interesting in getting 15 euros an hour to help with revision. Why would they?

However I know several people who at one stage went down the notice in the boulangerie route. They are all students. I am sure they do not declare the income, but they are not qualified teachers.
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Sorry if this is a bit of a sidetrack but,

Quote (Russethouse): “Its not the Brits that will 'play policeman' its the French artisans who sees their living as jeopardized”

Having only lived in France for a year and a half, this is something I still have to “get to grips with”. I cannot get a plumber (or any artisan) to give me a quote without a lot of pressure, let alone to actually come to do the work. They seem booked-up for many months in the future. Anybody who I need to come to do work seems to have a long waiting list. I used to think it was me. Changed my soap, started mouth wash, etc. but no differencet. Then I discovered everybody (French people as well) have the same “difficulties”.

Unemployment is high, you cannot get an artisan ‘cos they are all fully booked and have too much work, yet they feel threatened by people doing jobs they willnot/cannot do ?

I’m not disagreeing, just can’t get my head round it all. Maybe artisans in other areas are short of work and thus feel more threatened ?

Ian

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"It's got nothing to do with the quality of work or 'competition'. It's about working legally, being adequately insured and paying your taxes due like any other law abiding citizen."

Well said!

Some of the posters on this thread do not seem to realise that they are funding the expensive cars, etc, for those working illegally.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

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As someone else has said, you have to wait a long, long time to get a French registered artisan to do work for you (don't I know it!  The barn renovation we hoped would start in  March will now commence at the end of October!) and modern-day impatience is wonderful fuel to the "black" fire.

We were at a party last night and (French and English) discussing how many Brits are working "on the black" and how they are getting bolder and bolder with their prices.  I, obviously naively, suggested that their greed would price them out of the market because eventually it would be cheaper to wait for the registered artisan, to which a retired English guy told me this: 

He is a pretty proficient DIYer and has had his work praised by French and English friends.  He was recently approached by a French friend who said that a friend of a friend wanted his bathroom retiled and would this guy like to do the work.  He didn't want the job but the friend of the friend of the friend was quite persistant.  So in the end this guy decided to put him off by pricing himself out of the market and saying that he would do the job but would want 250€ a day for approximately 4 days work.  He felt certain this would frighten the French guy off because he had based this on double the daily rate he had heard that other "black" workers were charging.  He said his arm was almost bitten off with glee as this was 300€ cheaper than the French guy had been quoted by a French guy and 500€ less than he had been quoted by another English guy, both working on the black, and he couldn't wait the six months or so that he would have to wait for a registered artisan. 

Now it seems to me that with people being prepared to pay these sort of rates for uninsured and uninvoiced work, then you're never going to get rid of the "black" workers.

We've also found ourselves that now that some of the local artisans are getting to know us, even they are not averse to doing "a bit on the side".  When they have come to give us their devis a couple of them (who are excellent craftsmen and very nice people) have offered us a devis TTC or a devis "hors taxes" but also "hors written devis" if you get my drit guvnor

And when you see the social charges that these one-man bands with young children have to pay you can quite easily see why they are tempted.  I think the whole system needs a total overhaul and now think that old George W wasn't that far from the truth when he made his classic statement that "it's strange that the French don't have a word for entrepreneur".  If it were easier to set up in business and the charges weren't so crippling perhaps a lot more people would go legal, so although charges would be less, a lot more people would be paying them.  I certainly think more of the Brits working on the black would be more tempted to get into the system if it were easier and not so financially crippling.

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This looks like a recipe for disaster to me esp in a place like Normandy where there is already some reported resentment about the perceived 'Brit effect' on house prices - (and probably now blamed for using all the local artisans causing the locals to wait too)

I know the French do it, but I think that as a massive generalisation, for Brits who are working on the black, it is their sole income whereas my impression is that the French will do mainly 'legal' work but 'fit in' a bit extra here and there, so they do make some contributions......
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