Jump to content

Scam involving British claiming benefits?


Recommended Posts

I jhust caught the end of a very short item on France Info about the President of a Conseil Regional (didn't hear where but it was somewhere where there were lots of British residents) launching an enquiry into British people living in 'maisons cossues' and claiming to have no income - something to do with RMI but I missed most of it so can't be more specific.    I'm sure it won't be our region but more likely somewhere in the SW.    Just so you know, in case you need to!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I really wish that the carte de sejour had remained, then we had to prove income to get the right to live in France and could not be benefit claimers. I hope that they get anyone who is claiming who shouldn't be. All this RMI and CMU, (as it was as I do realise that they have changed its name) the part where people get free health care, annoys me beyond belief.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Teamedup"]I really wish that the carte de sejour had remained, then we had to prove income to get the right to live in France and could not be benefit claimers. I hope that they get anyone who is claiming who shouldn't be. All this RMI and CMU, (as it was as I do realise that they have changed its name) the part where people get free health care, annoys me beyond belief.[/quote]

 

TU

Let me start by saying that I have no wish to fight with you but what specifically is it that annoys you beyond belief about people receiving free health care?

If you mean  those that deliberately set out to abuse the system in order to ensure their new life in France costs as little as possible, then I am with you, although I find that nowadays there is less and less that really bugs me to the degree it does yourself.  But there are some that have paid their way for donkeys years and then when have need of the health system find that the rules allow them to have free treatment.  If you ever find yourself in that position I think you will find your views may change.

weedon

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the whole point is that it isn't so much TU getting annoyed, it is a significant number of French people who see it is being wrong that non-French people, not working, and surrounded by an obvious degree of wealth, should be entitled to health care etc under the CMU by virtue of low income when French workers and self-employed are struggling on minimum wage, high cotisations etc.

There may be a degree of envy from some British who work hard and are not entitled to free healthcare, but we all know that this is how the system works, these people are entitled under the rules and in many cases they automatically get the help whether they ask for it or not. It's certainly not a scam, more a shortcoming of the system.

I don't personally accept the argument that because you have contributed to the British system you should be entitled to get a British-style free health service in France. It does work that way when you are on an E-form, as money paid out on French healthcare is then reimbursed through the British system, but the people in question, if receiving benefits under the CMU, are, by definition, permanent residents.

The subject has been discussed before on this forum, under the title 'English CMU scroungers' or similar, following an article in the French press highlighting this so-called 'problem'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind any genuinely sick person getting free care for their illness. My objection is when people move to France with insufficient ressources to keep themselves and end up getting free care from the french system.

Not only is the french health care system in dire financial straights, but, ordinary people in France on  low incomes have to pay for their health care and their mutualists. Anyone moving here should not be sapping a system that is already in crisis and I don't believe that they should be 'better off' than your average worker.

The other point is that people will come and buy and leave themselves with so little income that they receive this benefit, but ordinary french low paid workers cannot afford to buy and not only are screwed by the system by having to pay not only for their own health care/mutualist, but for that of these incomers. And to add insult to injury usually have their rent to pay to boot and will likely have no chance of ever being able to buy a property of their own.

Fall out or not, I do not think it right and rue the day that they stopped us having to provide proof that we could keep ourselves before being allowed to stay in France.

We have scroungers coming in and I don't like scroungers anywhere. Me, I am not so young and when I see my own 'young' struggling and not having a chance of ever buying and working too hard because the system is bent and won't pay him for the hours he works and is paying his health care and mutualist and rent, you won't see me looking kindly in any way on this sort of thing.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When this was discussed, as it has been in a few threads, I and others,

posted that we had visions of this kind of thing happening.

The minute a little loophole becomes apparent (and I mean loophole, in

so much as many Brits are working whilst claiming CMU, have no second

thoughts about that and that is illegal. We have had Artisans on here

who have complained that they are unfair competition and rightly they

don't like it. Now we find (as some of us thought, that the French have

now realised that the Brits are taking liberties by claiming CMU, when

in fact many, although not having a salary have a nice few quid stashed

and are saying nothing but claiming CMU on the back of a few shillings

being declared.

That is what gets up most of our noses, we pay and, oh boy do we pay for

our health, whilst under this system it is allowing folks with a nice few

quid to get free or at worst, cheap health care.

Now those that have been totally honest, well fair enough, they are

getting what I guess is their rights by the law but my hunch is that an

awful lot of Brits have grabbed this cheap way to get health cover and

once they have health cover, they then start to work on the black,

knowing at least they have health cover without paying the proper rate.

S no, I am not surprised that the French have sussed it out and

I am sure that with all the cutbacks and the increases in cotisations,

that they will look in to the way the CMU is awarded and no doubt,

question how much people will be obliged to pay in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are clearly Brits who retain (or think they are retaining a foot in Britain) to avoid paying their dues to France - Those who cannot seem to know if they are residents here but want the health cover whilst avoid completing a tax form. Perhaps we should lobby for the return of the Carte de Sejour!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh my how sour are the grapes,the french do not dish out rmi/cmu to anyone who happens to land in France,this is becoming a moan against paying ones way in France,the old but true saying is "if you anit got they can`t tax it"springs to my mind.Anyone disagree with this,when one claims rmi/cmu personal savings are not taken in account and if on paper ones house is worth xxxxxx euro,s that should stop one receiving anything?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are certainly a few round here getting free this and that and working on the black as well. The think is that you can sit in a particular bar on market day and here them telling people that one of the reasisn they have left the UK is because of imigrants getting free houses, free health etc, etc and never putting anything back in to the system, talk about pots and kettles. They seem to justify working on the black and doing the other things they do by saying they have worked and paid tax, NI etc in the UK for the last 40 years, well really get a life. The sad thing is that fr most of them getting in to the system and registered with the tax man is nt that difficult nor is it expensive. I have done it and to be honest, as I have said before, I am better off here than the UK tax wise.

I have one thing tha makes me smile about those not registered in as much as the rules for escaping paying tax when they sell their house state that residensy for that purpose is measured by how long you have been registered for tax in France so some will be getting a bit of a shock at some stage and bloody right to.

So I am with TU, Will and Miki on this and I am afraid the statements made by Weedon about paying in for loads of years and as such are entitled just don't wash at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I think the whole point is that it isn't so much TU getting annoyed,

it is a significant number of French people who see it is being wrong

that non-French people, not working, and surrounded by an obvious

degree of wealth, should be entitled to health care etc under the CMU

by virtue of low income when French workers and self-employed are

struggling on minimum wage, high cotisations etc.

There may be a degree of envy from some British who work hard and are

not entitled to free healthcare, but we all know that this is how the

system works, these people are entitled under the rules and in many

cases they automatically get the help whether they ask for it or not.

It's certainly not a scam, more a shortcoming of the system.

I don't personally accept the argument that because you have

contributed to the British system you should be entitled to get a

British-style free health service in France. It does work that way when

you are on an E-form, as money paid out on French healthcare is then

reimbursed through the British system, but the people in question, if

receiving benefits under the CMU, are, by definition, permanent

residents.

The subject has been discussed before on this forum, under the title

'English CMU scroungers' or similar, following an article in the French

press highlighting this so-called 'problem'.

Will http://www.vienormande.com"

That about sums it up Will.

Probably when the French system was set up they did not envisage the

number of people that would move from the UK to France and also as Val

has said there was some protection from the Carte de Sejour.

Scam is probably over the top, but there are certainly British people

who are well aware of the French system and how to use it - close to us

we have a couple running a gite complex worth a substantial amount of

money - a large percentage of the income from this goes directly to the

UK - the husband also carries out  ‘building work’ on the black,

and they live a very comfortable lifestyle - and also receive CMU.

Envy? Probably not.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

htp://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Will -

I have no idea what the answer to this question is.  On the

reverse side of this, do French who take up residency in the UK have

the right to the same coverage as Brits.  Is there some sort of

reciprocal agreement to EU/UK countries?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are getting the RMI then you can most certainly claim the CMU freebie which covers everything, even that part the mutualist usually pays.And how is that for a bonus for someone who has put themselves in a position of being in another country and not being able to support themselves.

And we need to keep the RMI and the free CMU, there is such high unemployment in France and there are people in dire straights.

Never crossed my mind that anyone would envy those who abuse such systems, how sad would that be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really understand the argument here. If a French person decides to live in the UK they are entitled to all the same benefits as anyone else in the UK, free health service, minimum income support and whatever else there is going. I thought that this was the EU and that all the Countries entered into these agreements voluntarily. The fact that the French can't run their health service without it running up a massive deficit is a problem for the French State to resolve and frankly from what I know about it, it could do with a good sort out, starting with paying doctors a salary rather than being paid by the number of customers that they can get through their doors. This all sounds like the sort of grumbling that is always aimed against immigrants. If there are people fiddling the system, fine, deal with them whatever their country of origin, but I am sure that there are French people fiddling the system as well. I know quite a number of British people living here in France on a very small amount of income, what should they do, go back to the UK?   Come on, this is 2006 and France is one of the richest countries in the world.

Chris

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with Chris.

I am a citizen of the UK - paid taxes and at the same time I am part of the EU -   if I go to France and ask for health care if it is needed then I should receive it as my right - by the same token I have no problem in anyone from France coming to the UK who requires the same rights - what is the problem - either we are all part of the EU or we are not - stop whining an whinging and most importantly stop being insular and narrow minded..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Teamedup"]

I don't mind any genuinely sick person getting free care for their illness. My objection is when people move to France with insufficient ressources to keep themselves

[/quote]

I think Will has summed up this point very nicely , but TU  few people move to France without the means to keep themselves as you seem to believe.  Thousands of Brits live off small pensions and the interest earned on capital invested from house sales in the UK and lump sum pension payments or redundancies and draw off that capital  as necessary to fund major items of expenditure like houise refurbishments, cars and  swimming pools etc, The only part of that wealth treated as income by the French and any other tax system come to that, is the interest earned on the capital, if that and pensions etc does not equate to the minimum income needed for paying for health care in France then it is provided free even though these people may have money in the bank in the UK.  This is only brought about because contributions to the French healthcare system are based on income not capital wealth.  It may not be right or fair but that is the system and you cannot make voluntary contributions..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are no loopholes in laws - just badly framed legislation with mesh of the wrong size and/or in the wrong place. Avey-Ron correctly pointed out that many of the incoming Brits are capital rich not income rich with the significance possibly not being grasped by any French struggling on SMIC type wages, hence the envy (?).

Interest yields are low even for GBP and lower still for €. Remember the old adage "low interest only benefits those who borrow". Occupational pensions for those of us not on final salary schemes are terrible so I can see how many will fall below minimum income levels whilst still appearing to live in sumptuous luxury thanks to capital.

As for the thieves who work on the black whilst claiming benefits there is no defence. We would turn them in quickly enough if they took the cash straight from our wallets so why not when they steal from us in other ways ?

Not a good subject for a sunny Sunday morn.

John

not

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="chris pp"]

If a French person decides to live in the UK they are entitled to all the same benefits as anyone else in the UK, free health service, minimum income support and whatever else there is going. I thought that this was the EU and that all the Countries entered into these agreements voluntarily.

[/quote]

Chris - and Ray B. That is the point. Foreigners taking up residence in Britain do indeed get the same benefits as nationals. That in itself is something of a sore point, as any reader of the Daily Mail, Sun etc will no doubt agree. Equally, those other Europeans in France, once they have taken up residence, get the same benefits as French nationals. The fact is that these benefits are smaller (e.g. only 70% on average of health costs are paid in most cases). Those on low incomes are, thanks to CMU, able to avoid paying into the system - those on 'normal' incomes have to pay quite heavy charges. 'Normal' income can be well under 15,000€ for those on the SMIC. RMI works somewhat similarly, but fewer people can get this. In fact, under CMU, people can often get a free complementaire so they effectively get a full refund of health charges. The system takes only income into account, assets are ignored. So those living off interest and capital from sale of UK property - which number quite a fair few in Normandy and Brittany at least - get treated as if they were French nationals on their uppers. That is what the system allows, so in that respect it is indeed the right of those immigrants.

It is not really surprising that if a French worker struggling on the minimum wage hears that his English neighbour, paying what seems like a fortune on renovating a house, installing a pool, running a 4x4 etc, gets free health care and assistance from the French state then that French person will get a bit hot under the collar, in the same way that his British equivalent gets worked up about asylum seekers in England. It is just a short step from that to saying that all the British who have moved in, or at least those who do not have jobs, are milking the state.

It is indeed a problem with the system that needs sorting out. Before anybody gets too annoyed it isn't only the British who are seen as taking advantage. I heard recently from one French farmer, an ex-maire, that older farmers, if they had no heirs, or if their offspring were not interested in taking over the farm, were suddenly finding themselves very rich on retirement. Not because of generous pensions - quite the opposite in the case of agriculteurs - but capital rich, after the sale of all the livestock, equipment and most of their land. Their low income means they are getting state assistance despite their actual wealth. That is winding up certain sectors of the French rural population even more than the British invasion - so it is a recognised problem, that needs sorting out, particularly in view of the state of the French health service. But it will be a very sensitive and delicate one to solve.

Political rant over, have a nice Sunday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="josa"]

I have to agree with Chris.

I am a citizen of the UK - paid taxes and at the same time I am part

of the EU -   if I go to France and ask for health care if it

is needed then I should receive it as my right - by the same token

I have no problem in anyone from France coming to the UK who

requires the same rights - what is the problem - either we are all part

of the EU or we are not - stop whining an whinging and most importantly

stop being insular and narrow minded..

[/quote]

What a ridiculous argument, you suggest that healthcare should be the

same in France as in the UK and you should just be able to arrive and

get it for free. You get in reimbursed if you are on holiday here and

you happen to be ill, but it is another matter if you chose to live

here.   That is not how it works here, and wishful thinking is not

going to change that, if you have enough money to pay into the system

you should pay into the system like the rest of us, if you really can't

afford it, then you get help like French people.  Insular and

narrow minded is a bit rich from somebody who has just affirmed that

because it works one way in the UK it should be the same in

France.  I seriously hope you are not coming to live here, I think

the culture shock would clearly be too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree Tourangelle, we might all wish there was a common system, but there isn't, and wishing will not make it so. The fact is that the requirements are different, in the Uk residency is the criteria, in France it is differently based.

I can see no earthly reason why the French should have to subsidize people who feel they are not getting the benefits they deserve from paying into the UK system when it was their free choice to move to France.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using legal means to benefit from the system is what a lot

of people do all the time.  Maybe true

that the wealthier tend to do it more, but that happens everywhere (certainly

in the UK).  Getting free health care

whilst being wealthy is in may ways no different to avoiding paying loads of

tax through “clever accounting”.  At the

end of the day you are taking more and giving less.  Taking by free healthcare seems to me no different than failing

to contribute through other means (e.g. income tax).

I also think there is a significant difference between “capital

rich” and “income rich”.  Fine, you may

own a chateau worth millions but if you cannot sell it, have no money in the

bank, etc. you will have problems in Super U.

(My opinion anyway)

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While waiting at the Doc's on Friday for my paid for treatment,I read an article in a mag. comparing the amount a worker pays in cotisations in France compared to other EU countries. In France ,the highest, the amount was 16%, in UK it was 6%.  It also pointed out the difficulty in starting a small business in France, compared to UK and the extra's involved in employing someone. It does seem to be quite expensive to get started on anything and unless a substantial income is expected, not worth the initial headaches/outgoings. Saying that, at least it seems to prevent the amount of frauds/deposit takers/VAT fiddles etc.in the UK.  I only have to think of one company;run by one person in Bournemouth, who set up a double glazing co, took hundreds of thousands in deposits, bought new machinery/lorries/vans/ went bust, bought the stock/vans etc back from the Receivers Office,. Started up in new premises and did exactly the same thing again. This happened with about  5  very large companies within a couple of months, some being taken over by wife or son. The suppliers/customers losing out. When I wrote a letter to our local paper suggesting that the local business advisory service would do well to take these former directors on board so that we can all earn at everyone else's expense, they actually phoned me to say that although my comments were true, they couldn't publish them!!!

Anyway, not earning a living but getting more self sufficient which seems to be an alternative.

Regards.By St.Malo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...