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Myths about France


Viv
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When we used to have to go to school(s) a lot and discuss our lad, a friend suggested that I started taking his Dad with me as the headmaster would take us seriously if Dad was there. So, in we would go and all my husband would say was an hello and I would do all the talking. And the headmaster(s) would look at husband and reply to him. I was invisible.

This pig ignorance used to annoy me beyond belief, however, if Dad was there the head(s) would try and be helpful and try and do something, be it very limited. If I just went, nothing would get done.

 

And all these headmasters ran establishments where half their pupils were female.

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I pay all the bills from my account also and yet everything is addressed to M rather than Mme. It rather makes me want to return them to their sender!

It's a wonder they allow us to drive and wear trousers!

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[quote user="viva"]I pay all the bills from my account also and yet everything is addressed to M rather than Mme. It rather makes me want to return them to their sender! [/quote]

This one touches a nerve with me!!!

When I completed our first déclaration  d'impôts, I wrote my name under chef de famille and his name under conjoint.

I didn't even think about it: I'm French, he's English, I've been in charge of our finances since day 1 and I also deal with all legal and official stuff regarding France; it's easier as I understand and speak French much better than he does...

Anyway, when our next déclaration arrived, it had his name under chef de famille and mine under conjoint.

I called the centre des impôts regarding something or other and mentioned the point. I was told "Mais madame, depuis que vous vous êtes mariée, vous passez en second. Aux yeux de l'administration frençaise, le monsieur passe toujours en premier."

(since you got married, you come second. In the administration's eyes, your husband comes first.)

This really stuck in my mind: a married woman does not exist in her own right unless she's separated, divorced or widowed. Only then can she be called chef de famille.

If this sort of attitude is officially sanctioned, you cannot expect French society to treat women as equal to men or French women to see themselves as such.

PS: I've never used a married name either. Our 2nd déclaration d'impôts arrived under M et Mme his-name. I was commenting on that to my elderly French neighbour, who exclaimed "but if you didn't want his name, why did you get married then??!" [8-)] By the 3rd déclaration, my name had finally registered with them...

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My wife uses her maiden name, or should I say tries to. We have come across all the things that have been mentioned and it's like banging your head on a brick wall.  None of the French authorities will accept her using anything other than my name, so now she has UK documents and French documents in different names. Basically the same, when we mentioned this to our French neighbours, back came the response, BUT your married, if you didn't want his name why are you married?  Well, never thought of that, what a good reason for getting married.

When did women get the vote in France?

Chris

 

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1944 apparently (men in 1848).

In Britain, women over 30 got the vote in 1918, and women over 21 in 1928.

Looks as if it takes a war, and for women to show they are capable of working, or running the family alone, for this to eventually be accepted.

Angela

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"Well if anyone addressed anything official to my 'better' half they would wait for eternity for a reply LOL.  Along with many of my female friends I do all the paperwork - always have done. "

I get angry when things are addressed to my other half and would ignore them if I could. The trouble is, this very morning he's had a letter asking him to confirm that we don't have a television in our maison secondaire. Grrrrrrrr....

Hoddy

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Doesn't all of this tie in with another saying (which I don't class as a myth) that in many ways, France is like the UK was 30 years ago. Generally this comment is applied to the frequently low crime rates - in rural France anyway, to the focus on the family, joint meals, inclusion of elderly members of the family, etc. You know what I mean - the perception is that France walks to the beat of a slower, more relaxed drum. Yes. But.

Generally, in the UK 30 years ago, the man was the head of the family, women might work outside the home but they weren't generally in the positions of responsibility that they are now... two occurrences come to mind to support this: when I was 19, I needed my own passport for a holiday. As I was under 21, I needed a parent to countersign the form. My mother did so. I took the forms to the passport office, handed them over and they were smartly handed back. "Your mother has signed this. We need your father's signature", was the response. So I lied through my teeth saying my father worked abroad and I needed a passport to visit him and the form says a parent, and my mother is one of them. With hesitation and much grumbling, he issued my passport.

Twenty-five years ago and just married, my mother-in-law enrolled (her and me) for a summer school course. She filled out the application form and I was gobsmacked (or would have been if the word had been in use then) to see she'd enrolled me as Mrs Fred Smith - ie, my husband's full name. Not even Mrs Catalpa Smith but my husband's name. (Can you hear my shrill indignation even 25 years later??) When I tippexed out his name and put in mine, she said snappily, "aren't you proud to be married?" [:#]

As someone who questioned the right of anyone, including my father, to give me away at my wedding (give me away??? No one owns me!) you can imagine how relaxed I am about the subsidiary role the French state allocates to women. No doubt I'll persevere too to get recognised in my own right, work in my small way to influence French institutional thinking about the role of women... but I do view it as one of the less appealing facets of this "France is wonderful because it is 30 years behind the UK" viewpoint. France will change, we just have to help it! [:D]

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[quote user="Teamedup"] So, in we would go and all my husband would say was an hello and I would do all the talking. And the headmaster(s) would look at husband and reply to him. I was invisible.[/quote]

That is outrageous. Are there any female 'heads' ? How do they conduct themselves?

BUT

[quote user="viva"]I pay all the bills from my account also and yet everything is addressed to M rather than Mme. It rather makes me want to return them to their sender! [/quote]

That is relatively trivial. e.g. I frequently tell enquirers from suppliers to send their correspondence to 'dogsbody'  - it will get dealt with  !

 

If the underlying discrimination is stopping women progressing then it needs changing, and continually challenging. If the 'authorities' and bureaucrats work in a certain way that  is silly it will eventually be reformed along with the many other sillies .

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[quote user="Owens88"]

[quote user="Teamedup"] So, in we would go and all my husband would say was an hello and I would do all the talking. And the headmaster(s) would look at husband and reply to him. I was invisible.[/quote]

That is outrageous. Are there any female 'heads' ? How do they conduct themselves?.[/quote]

Probably in the same way, Owens.  When we went through a very unpleasant time with an impôts problem (a bill for about 25000 euros, oh how we laughed), I obviously had to go and sort it out.  Two neighbours offered to help - by sending their men along with me.  No question of who does the paperwork at home, if you need support in a situation like that, you take/send a MAN.  It'll be quicker in the long run!

[quote user="Owens88"]

[quote user="viva"]I pay all the bills from my account also and yet everything is addressed to M rather than Mme. It rather makes me want to return them to their sender! [/quote]

That is relatively trivial. [/quote]

Well, it is and it isn't.  It's a little bit like apartheid - you're black, I'll send your mail to that nice white person with you, okay?   It's not nice. 

All my cards etc in France now have my husband's surname as my middle name.  So I'm Madame Hisname Myname.  Kind of keeps everybody happy, once you get used to it!

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There is a law that states that married women have the right to use their maiden name, I have friends who actually keep a photocopy in their bag to prove this. If they divorce on the other hand, they can only continue to use their ex husband's name if he gives them written permission.

My son is at the school I teach in, I filled in all the registration forms with both our names but the bulletin still comes addressed to my husband. I know of one mother who fills in the "other parent's name and address in case of divorce" part just to have her name somewhere.

Out of interest, the law allowing women to vote was passed in 1945 and they voted for the first time in 1946. Before that it was seen as unnecessary because they would obviously vote the same way as their husbands. In fact there used to be three towns with seperate men/women urns to prove this (they actually proved the opposite)

In 1964 a law was passed that allowed married women to open a bank acount, and have a passport without having to ask for their husband's permission. Sometimes I wonder if everybody is aware of this.

The law stting that both wife and husband are "chef de famille" and have authorité parental is much more recent, late eighties I think.

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I preferred my maiden name but have been happy to use my married name since getting married, however in a country which does not really acknowledge women wanting to use their maiden names - how come we're all registered under it when it comes to healthcare????

 

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[quote user="Mistral"]There is a law that states that married women have the right to use their maiden name, I have friends who actually keep a photocopy in their bag to prove this. If they divorce on the other hand, they can only continue to use their ex-husband's name if he gives them written permission.[/quote]

Yes, a French woman can officially choose to use her maiden name. There is a box to tick on the déclaration d'impôts if she wants the mail to be adressed to both individuals.

However, the great majority of French people will still address her as Madame his-name...

When my parents divorced in the 70's, my father said he would not allow my mother to used his name. My reply to him was to inform him my name would be changed to hers. He changed his mind...

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[quote user="naps"]I preferred my maiden name but have been happy to use my married name since getting married, however in a country which does not really acknowledge women wanting to use their maiden names - how come we're all registered under it when it comes to healthcare???[/quote]

If you have the opportunity, have a look at your French deeds. They will state your name as "yourfullname, épouse his-surname"

The reason a French birth certificate is only "valid" for 3 months is that you are registered under your birth name and all changes are annoted in the margin of the register. So it could be marked as  single in March and married the following June.

Mine would say épouse hisname in the margin if I had bothered to declare the marriage to the French consulate!

Technically, as was pointed out to me at the Mairie here when I renewed my carte d'identité, I could be a bigamist in France, as my birth certificate does not carry any mention of my marriage contracted in the UK!!

(no thanks, once is more than enough! [;)])

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[quote user="catalpa"]

 I was gobsmacked (or would have been if the word had been in use then) to see she'd enrolled me as Mrs Fred Smith - ie, my husband's full name. Not even Mrs Catalpa Smith but my husband's name.

[/quote]

But that is a correct from of address, you could also be known as Catalpa Smith, Mrs.

France may well change but will it progress ?

John

not

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The only thing that I put my maiden name on is the forms for the CPAM and then add epouse 'Up'. The attestations etc from the CPAM  have my name down in my maiden name and I am pretty sure the tax form does too.

 

Re this chef de famille thing. I remember being at my friends house and it was that time of year when there are lots of forms from school to fill in. She filled everything in on the form and then left it, saying that her husband would sign it later. I told her that she should sign it, she was as responsible for her kids as he was. She took fright and didn't. However,  about a week later when I bumped into her, she gave me a huge smile and was quite excited that she had signed a paper herself.  I felt really happy for her.

Until last year I helped run an association and even last year some of the mothers would apoligise if they had signed saying that they hoped it would be OK. I would leave them in no doubt that I fully approved of them signing.

I knew that it was not 'that' long ago that a married woman needed written permission to work. The french women I know seem to think that this must have been a very long time ago, I don't know why.

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[quote user="Debra"].  We were told that women always use their maiden name in France.  [/quote]

Legally, the name you are born with is the only name have all through life. The law allows you to have a nom d'usage, which can be whatever you choose. You just have to contact the "authorities" and tell them that you now want to known as X. When you get married, you can use your husband's name as a nom d'usage if you want but you don't have to. For everything administrative you keep your maiden name. this is why the carte vitale is maiden name, epouse married name. When I took the french teaching exams, I thought I was in the wrong room as the desks were set out in alphabetical order and I went to the part of the room where my married name would be. When we married (in france) my mum was a bit surprised to hear that I was daughter of my dad (his name) and my mum (her maiden name) not of mr and mrs.

[quote]We also understand that when we move to France my children will have to revert to using my first husband's surname, when in fact he agreed for my current surname to be added onto the end of their names and so all their current doctor's records, school records and passports show my children having the same last name as my current married name.  Their records in France will then match with their birth certificates but not their passports.  [/quote]

There is a new(ish) law that allows a couple to choose to give either parent's name to their children (or both combined) So you should have the right to use your ex-husband's name combined with your maiden name (but not your second husband's name) The law is for new births but until the end of June you are allowed to use it to change names of children under a certain age (I think it's 13, but I'm not sure)

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Honestly, I'd be surprised if they'll let them use your maiden name on any official documents and thinking about it, I'm not sure the new law would have worked for you as this would have allowed you to add to a french birth certificate not a UK one.

But I have pupils at school (born before the law came into action) who use both parents' names on their school documents. I think it's just the parents' decision to have both names and I know that even on their school registration papers they have put both names. I assume that only one is on the birth certificate or ID card. If you do decide to this, it would probably be best to use a combination of your maiden name and their birth names although birth name-second husband's name might be possible. Don't forget that for the french you still have your maiden name.

I think having your ex's written permission would be a good idea. Didn't you say you already had it? On a side note: the school will probably ask his name and address because they are supposed to send reports to both parents.

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I have been married twice and have kept my first husband's name; by the time I married for the second time I was known by this name professionally and it seemed too complicated to change it for some things and not for others.   My husband is perfectly happy with this, but it caused no end of problems in France - until recently the bank absolutely refused to allow me to use it on the joint account, so it meant that every time anyone asked for identification (happily it didn't happen often) I didn't have any.   Recently, though, they have given me a new bank card in my first husband's surname - i.e. my name, according to me.   I decided not to ask why in case they decided to change it!

When I explain to people here that in the UK you can choose what you are called, they look at me as though I am mad.   I guess it's probably to do with the inheritance laws that things are so strict here.  But of course that doesn't explain the sexism........

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