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Just a general rant :-p


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I never accept any legal or financial advice on any forum unless accompanied, in the case of France, by proof such as a Dicret number etc for exactly the reason you stated in your last sentence. My advice has always been and always will be (as with many other members) is not to listen to people on a forum on such matters but to seek proper proffesional advice here in France. I am sure that many, probably all, of the members would say exactly the same thing. Again reference your comments about the 'Fisc', can you back that up, point us to the relevant Dicret or some form of precedence etc we can read?

As to your comments about not believing your legal advisor, I never said that, its you that have asked for a second opinion not me, I simply asked for the Dicret number so I can look it up myself and if needed seek proper professional advice. I don't want to go to my accountant and tell him he is wrong because some person on an English speaking forum about France who has no accounting or legal qualifications has told me so based on having lunch with their 'legal advisor' in their own home in Switzerland. If however I went forearmed with the Dicret number or other official source I could print it out and wave it under his nose I could have a right go at him. As it is I will seek further proffesional advice to discover any liabilities that he may not have made me aware of, as suggested by another member.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]
 What on earth makes you think Q is the Senior moderator ?[:)]

 Or that there is moderator hierarchy ?[:)]
[/quote]

See RH bow down and grovel [:P]. Honestly, four women and one chap and you think I am the senior moderator, give me a break. Whats that old saying "men believe they are the boss because women let them think they are", well something like that but you know what I mean.[;-)]

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[quote user="Swissie"]He is top of a non alphabetical list. I agree it is better not to have a hierarchy. Thanks for correcting me RH. Do you have any idea re the answer to my question. I feel it is important that it is clearly answered to avoid problems in the future.
[/quote]

And you said you believe your legal advisor, give me a break, I am off to bed with a paracetamol, all this contradiction is doing my head in, sleep well, I will. [:D]

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Dear, Mr Senior moderator , a few pages back I offered to sell you my house to add to your portfolio , just thought I would try again in case you missed it . [Www]

It has two leather sofa`s so the brown envelope could be generous I`m sure. [;-)]

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[quote user="Swissie"]We only use recycled envelopes- and they are buff coloured ppp!

Just checked with my French legal advisor. He says it is totally illegal to pay for 50% in cash- and that only minor sums for furniture would be legally allowed. Being married to the most honest man in the world, bless him- we will, as usual go the legal route, and cut our cloth accordingly.
[/quote]

Buff envelopes!! Are you talking about the swiss Post Office?[:)]  Most definitely and I confirm the definitiveness of my defining assertion, the Private Banking Divisions of important Occidental International Banks with operations in Switzerland use White Envelopes and I have no reason to believe that the envelopes are recycled.

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[quote user="krusty"]

Dear, Mr Senior moderator , a few pages back I offered to sell you my house to add to your portfolio , just thought I would try again in case you missed it . [Www]

It has two leather sofa`s so the brown envelope could be generous I`m sure. [;-)]

[/quote]

What colour are the sofa's?

I'm still waiting for Sweet 17 to buy my winning lottery numbers. Some bloke in a pub gave them to me last week and I checked, they did come up the week before that so they obviously work. [;-)]

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Oh, Q, I thought you went to bed with a headache yesterday evening in order to have a good night's sleep.  Don't tell me you've been thinking about all this during the course of the night and got up early to post?

Winning lottery numbers indeed:  I don't gamble, too mean in case I lose my money (yes the money that no one will take off me!)

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There are dozens of entries on Google.fr - just search   les dangers de dessous-de-table.

www.newdealimmobilier.fr/blog/dessous-de-table.html     is quite clear

www.immostreet.com     les dangers de dessous de table explains possible sanctions mentioned in my previous post - including the risk that the fisc or commune might exercise they 'droit de préemption' and request to buy the property at the value officially paid + 10%.

There are many many more. I have no so far been able to find out the possible sanctions for a notaire/immo who encourages or condones such a deal - but I am certain they are also taking risks. We do have a notaire friend who lives just over the border in France - but she is somewhere in Greece at the mo. (Gilou is on the yacht - getting ready to sail to Croatia in the morning- he confirms his advice).

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Shame!

I was hoping you were going to come back here, Swissie, and say that it's all above board and perfectly legal!  And there's me holding on to my cash till the right house comes along and I was just looking for a big enough brown envelope too........

 

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or you could pay it in the buff (envelope of course) - but it seems quite clear now that it is defo not a good idea.

Again from capital.fr

Restera enfin à échapper à la vigilance du fisc. Celui-ci dispose d'une arme redoutable, baptisée OEIL, qui signale toute transaction anormalement décotée. Pour l'instant 800 à 1000 particuliers se font épingler par année. () Mais attention, les controles s'intensifient et les sanctions sont sévères. Coté acheteur, le prix est réévalué par comparaison avec des biens similaires et les droits d'enregistrement sont redressés, assortis de 0,4%  d'intéret par mois de retard, et le tout majoré de 40%.... Le fisc ou la commune peuvent aussi exiger l'achat du bien, pour le prix déclaré + 10%.

Very rough translation:

You will then have to try and escape the tax office. They have at their disposal a powerful tool, named THE EYE, which will point to any suspect transaction. so far 800 to 1000 individuals have been caught out per year. However, checks are becoming more frequent and sanctions are severe. From the buyers side, the price is revalued by comparison with similar properties and the documents redrawn + 0.4% interest per month and the whole thing increased by 40% on top. The tax office or the commune can also exercise their right to purchase the property at the price declared + 10%.

You will therefore probably get away with a small proportion paid in cash, officially furniture, white goods, etc - lets say max 15% - personally I wouldn't do it.  But 50% is so obvious, especially multiplied over 3 properties at the same time and IMHO VERY risky. 

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[quote user="Swissie"]There are dozens of entries on Google.fr - just search   les dangers de dessous-de-table.

www.newdealimmobilier.fr/blog/dessous-de-table.html     is quite clear

www.immostreet.com     les dangers de dessous de table explains possible sanctions mentioned in my previous post - including the risk that the fisc or commune might exercise they 'droit de préemption' and request to buy the property at the value officially paid + 10%.

There are many many more. I have no so far been able to find out the possible sanctions for a notaire/immo who encourages or condones such a deal - but I am certain they are also taking risks. We do have a notaire friend who lives just over the border in France - but she is somewhere in Greece at the mo. (Gilou is on the yacht - getting ready to sail to Croatia in the morning- he confirms his advice).
[/quote]

Environ 6 500 000 résultats (0,37 secondes) 

Wow that is a lot! Playing footsie must be a french pastime.[:)]
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[quote user="sweet 17"]

Shame!

I was hoping you were going to come back here, Swissie, and say that it's all above board and perfectly legal!  And there's me holding on to my cash till the right house comes along and I was just looking for a big enough brown envelope too........

 

[/quote]

Sounds like right time to buy a book and forget about the buff envelopes.[:)] [IMG]http://adverts.archant.co.uk/banners/lvfFPBG-web-banner.gif[/IMG]

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[quote user="Swissie"]I am of pure Huguenot blood - most Brits have a lot of Teutonic genes - you know that bit about the Angles and the Saxons. Lol - fully agree though re. your sentiments V.
[/quote]

Another gaffe; the Celts will crucify you, diplomacy not a strong Hugonot trait.[:)]

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

Sounds like right time to buy a book and forget about the buff envelopes.[:)] [IMG]http://adverts.archant.co.uk/banners/lvfFPBG-web-banner.gif[/IMG]

[/quote]

You on commission, Pacha?  And is your commission paid using brown or buff envelopes?[:D]

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[quote user="Swissie"]A proposal - if we can agree that the practice recently discussed is illegal and definitely not advised- maybe it would be better to pull that part of the thread, from Q's cash comment, and put it behind us.
[/quote]

I think it should stay in it's entirety as there are some interesting comments and it shows the route taken to get to this point. Of course it could have been a lot shorter if you had done your homework some while back instead of asking others to do it for you, I mean its not as if you work or anything, you must have loads of time compared to us that do work. [;-)] Also, in the article you quoted, it is only the authors interpretation (isn't it always in France!) of the Dicrets he quotes. The actual Dicrets quoted make more interesting reading and they are what I would suggest people use to decide their actions.

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Yep spelt that wrong didn't I.

I won't sit and put all the links in as I don't have time, to busy working, but you can  go to the link below and type in any Article number and it will give you what your looking for with cross references if required. There is also an English translation but I don't use that bit. It is not just restricted to the subject matter of this thread either.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/initRechCodeArticle.do

 

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