Wendy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I think the french are actually 'anti-english' rather than 'anti-british'. The french just don't understand what 'British' is and what 'English' is. They also assume if you speak english that you are english!. They dont realise that the Scots and Welsh are Brits as well. And do any of them like the dutch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="jond"]Logan - your (thoughtful) posting does deserve a response, but thisthread has gone so wildly of track that I'm afarid I cannot see muchpoint in replying. [/quote]Like you say, was interesting but not worth responding to then plough through another few pages of pantomime.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="wen"]I think the french are actually 'anti-english' rather than 'anti-british'. The french just don't understand what 'British' is and what 'English' is. They also assume if you speak english that you are english!. They dont realise that the Scots and Welsh are Brits as well. ?[/quote]I think you're absolutely right, wen, although people have asked me if I'm German. Apparently they're so surprised at a foreigner speaking decent French, they think it can only be a German. Of course it could also be the towel and the moustache. To be fair, many English people also don't realise that the Scots and Welsh are Brits as well! And as for that lot over the Irish Sea...... [:D][quote user="wen"]And do any of them like the dutch?[/quote]Ummm, nope, don't think so. [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"]I don't agree with your opinions (and opinions they are, not facts). We obviously come at these questions from different political viewpoints and are unlikely to change. However, I feel strongly that you cannot separate the things you love, the country, culture etc. and the system. If (or when , who knows) the system changes, the culture and people will also change. For many of us, the changes to British society during and after the Thatcherite era were too great a price to pay for any actual or perceived economic benefits.[/quote]It would be a strange and rather dull forum indeed if we only dealt in facts Kathy C. Are you from the 'Gradgrid' school of debate?It's an interesting concept. The system makes the people not the otherway round. A bit like chicken and egg, which comes first?I suggest history and cultural values form the people who develop a system. The problem is that a system must be dynamic and capable of meaningful change. All societies change. Modern democratic societies change quicker because of global influences. It is my contention that France, it's system and society is suffering from political and economic inertia. As long as radical change is resisted, decline and fall follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Kathy C - what state do you think the Uk would be in if we had not had the Thatcher era ? If the unions (unelected by the whole population) had continued to run the country what would have happened.As it is, we (and France) face increasing competition from the East, how much worse if we wre shackled by outdated ideas and practices, how would business coninue to attract investment if it wasn't profitable.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Rural idyll, that is not France. Physically that is not where most of the french population live. They live round towns and cities and just look at all those appartments. And most of the people I know live similar lives to those that I hear some posters are escaping from in the UK. The difference being that french people haven't 'made' little fortunes on UK property sales and have mortgages or rent to pay. Calais for me illustrates this so well. One drives for miles and miles without seeing anything and then suddenly there it is in the distance and that awful cite(s) they have built. Why weren't houses built, there is plenty of land in the area? but they weren't and people do live in those appts.French people leave nul part, because there is no work. How idyll can it be if you live in an appt, have rent to pay and are unemployed and we all know that unemployment payments have time limits.'My' France is not at all like the 'other' France I see people write about on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Gay, this is really worthy of another thread although it has nothing to do with France. My heart is with KathyC, but my brain is with you. I can't guess what Britain would have been like had we not had Thatcher. I do know that my feelings for her are visceral. I know that something needed to be done to curb the power of the unions and bring them up to date. I also know that I have never felt the same about the police since the miner's strike. I guess that lots of other ordinary middle of the road people had their minds changed in all sorts of ways around that time and that has produced the society we have now. I think it deepened the north/south divide. Whether you think society is better or worse now depends on your basic view of life.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Bouffon, I may lack intelligence but I have three advantages over you. I can write a comprehensible English sentence. I can spell, and I don't write ignorant rants which look as though they are quotations from the Daily Heil.All the best.Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Regarding France and its future, my opinion, for what it's worth, is that a younger and newer breed of politicians are needed to take over. Obvious, I know, but these old men seem so used to looking down on the plebs that they don't even know how out of touch they are with them.Chirac represents the old guard, the old world, the old-fashioned way and old politics.In a way (and I do not agree with ALL he stands for, when I can figure out WHAT he stands for), Sarkozi is the first of the "new guard", someone who is not an Enarque and who seem to want to use any solution, as long as it works. Hopefully, he'll pave the way then make way for others.Regarding racism in France, you only have to read this article in today's paper to know that unfortunately, it's never far from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"]Kathy C - what state do you think the Uk would be in if we had not had the Thatcher era ? If the unions (unelected by the whole population) had continued to run the country what would have happened.[/quote]"Unions running the country" smacks of a Sun headline to me. Although unelected, union membership in the late 1970s was nearly 60%, considerably higher than most election turnout figures and way beyond any government majority imaginable. Reform and decline of militancy was already coming into effect before Thatcher came to power. There were 5,000 strikes in 1970 and only 1,500 in 1979, reflecting the changing role of trade unionism rather than the strong handbag of Lady T. I would expect that, without Thatcher, changes and reforms would have progressed at a more normal speed, resulting in a more efficient but less self-centred society. I wish we had all been given the chance to find this out, but that wasn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="wen"]I think the french are actually 'anti-english' rather than 'anti-british'. The french just don't understand what 'British' is and what 'English' is. They also assume if you speak english that you are english!. They dont realise that the Scots and Welsh are Brits as well. And do any of them like the dutch?[/quote]I find alot of this wherever I travel and is not just peculiar to France. When being mistaken for English I correct them and there is a change of attitude regardless of whether I speak the lingo. I get comments like 'sorry' and 'ah yes we like scottish and irish people too'. America is the only place where I have travelled where this is the exception where they say 'Oh youre from Wales in England' I dont know why so many people are anti English with the Welsh, Scots and Irish getting off so lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Russethouse"]Kathy C - what state do you think the Uk would be in if we had nothad the Thatcher era ? If the unions (unelected by the wholepopulation) had continued to run the country what would have happened.[/quote]"Unions running the country" smacks of a Sun headline to me.Although unelected, union membership in the late 1970s was nearly 60%,considerably higher than most election turnout figures and way beyondany government majority imaginable. Reform and decline of militancy wasalready coming into effect before Thatcher came to power. There were5,000 strikes in 1970 and only 1,500 in 1979, reflecting thechanging role of trade unionism rather than the strong handbag of LadyT. I would expect that, without Thatcher, changes and reforms wouldhave progressed at a more normal speed, resulting in a more efficientbut less self-centred society. I wish we had all been given the chanceto find this out, but that wasn't the case.[/quote]I think anyone with a modicum of common sense can see just how sensible that reply is. Confronting and smashing societies (others would simply say unions) didwhat exactly ? If I come on here and demand that teachers should besmashed in to submission as education standards were dropping would berightly aghast and angry but the miners (to name one section) were justseen as fodder to prove just how manly Thatcher (read Jo Brands book onthe evil cow) could rule. Simple really, increase salaries to theforces aand police and send them in to beat the crap out of dissidentsand there you have it, a wonderful ruler. Sorry butanyone who thinks she did any good for the UK is deluding themselves into similar grandeur of believing the world only exists for themselves.Selfish does not even come close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh well, it's come back on topic, so why not:Logan, your comment about the role of government in markets is, I think, incorrect.The behaviour of businesses in a free market is influenced by only two factors: The proifit motive (and this includes "public opinion") The lawTo take one example that I can understand (because I worked in it for15 years), the oil industry. How likely do we think it would be for theoil industry to spend (globally) tens of billions of dollars to producegasoline and diesel that was less environmentally damaging when burntif it were not forced to by laws passed by governments? Highlevel oversight of business must remain in the hands of government. Ofcourse, where government exists to solely promote the interests ofbusiness, this can be something of a moot point.Globalisation is neither inevitable nor (as is becoming increasinglyobvious to those who see their jobs being exported to lower wageeconomies and the most poluting industries setting up where regulationis most lax) desirable. Personally, I think it more than likely thecurrent "France first" policy will develop into a more "Europe first"policy as people's basic livelihoods are further erroded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 We left the UK in early 1981 and really missed the Thatcher years. She hadn't really started when we left. And we are from mining stock, both sides and that is how my husband started, working down the pit. What can I say, what an evil woman, still she was in good company, even Churchill thought that the miners made a good cible.The UK still stands on huge coal reserves, just Thatcher obviously thought it was better to have third world children hewing coal for UK consumption, than keeping the mines open. How it affected UK society, I can't say. I do have some friends who thought that Mrs T was wonderful and T Blair is a suitable substitute and they are very happy with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Too many rosbifs? A good headline, particularly in UK papers who are always keen to find negatives about the UK.What I think really frightens the French, unions and functionaries and their cousins in Brussels is what they call Anglo-Saxon economics. The crowds protesting on the streets at the moment are up in arms about a tiny toe-in-the-water little liberalising of the labour laws. I agree with Clair that the status quo cannot continue forever and that it needs a new generation of politician to bring France not to mention the EU into a changing world.I have to admit that I do like the support the French give to their farmers - that creates a viable (through subsidy) rural economy. I certainly do not wish the fate of British farmers on them even though the EU CAP is a farce. This proves that I can believe two diametrically opposed views at the same time.What I have not, on a personal level, ever experienced is any resentment to rosbifs. Maybe like Madamoiselle our 85 year old neighbour, they put down my inability to speak passable French (let alone Charantaise French) to the belief that I come from Paris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val_2 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I generally find that its the generation of upto 40 years old here that are the most racist. Older folks have more respect and if they don't like you then they either ignore you completely or in the majority of cases take you under their wing, but the younger ones now really don't know how to treat foreigners and unfortunately those from outside Europe fare worse than us 'Rosbifs'. Here in Brittany xenophobia is rife towards those with dark skin especially and also against many brits who have formed enclaves in certain towns and villages alienating themselves from what they came here for.Many of these racist parents have instilled too, into their offspring a resentment against anyone who is not born and bred here and I have the perfect example living next door who was once a very close friend and through drink and fits of domestic violence has turned into a xenophobic,chauvenistic monster that no one likes anymore and the irony of it is that this idiot was born in the St.Denis area of northern Paris where there are many foreigners so he isn't a local either only through marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 That's scary, Val!Montpellier is allegedly young and futuristic and cosmopolitan. It's actually very nice to go in there, I always find myself thinking "wow, look, black people!!". [:D] That's what French village life does to you!And yet there are also the dreadful cités that TU mentioned elsewhere. High-rise estates with high immigrant population, all the usual problems. Figures doing the rounds just now say that about 80% of their inhabitants have never seen the sea. And the Mediterranean is only about 20km away.TU's right, there's the rural idyll that Brits tend to go for, and there's the "real life" as lived by about 50 million French people. They're not the same thing at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I forgot to say, Miki's right too. Can't remember what he said, but he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Miki"]I think anyone with a modicum of common sense can see just how sensible that reply is. Confronting and smashing societies (others would simply say unions) didwhat exactly ? If I come on here and demand that teachers should besmashed in to submission as education standards were dropping would berightly aghast and angry but the miners (to name one section) were justseen as fodder to prove just how manly Thatcher (read Jo Brands book onthe evil cow) could rule. Simple really, increase salaries to theforces aand police and send them in to beat the crap out of dissidentsand there you have it, a wonderful ruler. Sorry butanyone who thinks she did any good for the UK is deluding themselves into similar grandeur of believing the world only exists for themselves.Selfish does not even come close.[/quote]I think that I would agree that she was a (edit) demented hemeroid, thoughViva's point was not lost on me: I received a fully funded Universityeducation between 1985 and 1988. I left broke, but with no debt. Thateducation is something that I am profoundly grateful for, and I hope(believe) that I repaid its cost many times over through the additionaltaxes I was able to pay by dint of having had it.How any govt. of any hue can talk about "investing for the future" and"opening up education" and at the same time saddle graduates with debtsof £20,000 before they even start working is beyond me. As a percentageof national budget, university fees and subsistance grants are not ahuge item, so whatever motive can there be for not funding this sector?Do the govt. think that young people with substantial debt are lesslikely to rock the boat? Is it to get them into the habit of owingmoney so that they can continue to feed the consumer frenzy and houseprice inflation that seems to be the only motor for economic growth atthe moment?I notice that state funding of political parties is back on theagenda...this, apparantly, will improve the honesty of the politicalsystem. Extending that idea a bit, criminals are not really dishonest,they are just underpaid.Mind you, I had a soft spot for Denis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="SaligoBay"]I forgot to say, Miki's right too. Can't remember what he said, but he was right.[/quote]That's jolly decent of you to say that old bean, as I can't remembereither. Oh so very long ago and I guess that is why the memory can befond of something that never was but then again, after the last fewweeks, I have come to think that my yesteryears were just asgood as I remembered........it's OK I know what I is talking abart, Ithink, possibly won't tomorrow but today.................... [*-)]Because I can, I quote these words that just sprung to mind................... Oh, very young What will you leave us this time You're only dancing on this earth for a short while And though your dreams may toss and turn you now..................................Easy peasy to recall eh.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Sorry I do not want to disagree with you but miki is wrong,and as for him saying what is common sence well how common is he ,running a business mainly for none french nowhere near an inner city,(although regarding maggie her greater crime was to let the mines get in to such a state of disrepair as they are now,and not "moth balling" them),I will not be told what is common sence from miki.Please do not take it personally as it not ment be be personal,just that I will make my own mind up to what is commom sence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="le bouffon"]Sorry I do not want to disagree with you butmiki is wrong,and as for him saying what is common sence well howcommon is he ,running a business mainly for none french nowherenear an inner city,(although regarding maggie her greater crimewas to let the mines get in to such a state of disrepair as they arenow,and not "moth balling" them),I will not be told what is commonsence from miki.Please do not take it personally as it not ment be bepersonal,just that I will make my own mind up to what is commomsence.[/quote]How little you know...........we are members with G de France not B&B for the Brits ourbusiness is around 75% French and the Brits barely make up 7.5%. Renneshas plenty of HLM's and we are only 20 minutes or so away and indeed,welcome some of the people who live in them at weekends and midweek,when we gladly receive our regulars from Rennes and to be honest, whatcalling Thatcher an old cow has to do with me running a FRENCH chambresd'hôtes only your warped sense of debate can know the answer to that !!Mines cannot be mothballed, once shut it is only a short timeuntil they are no use at all. Common sense bouffie common sense, notbeing personal just saying what I believe is true and the sooner thatold cow is forgotten, the better. Never knew so many folks who boughttheir council house who all of a sudden thought they were then rightwing Tory's, starting with a nice new Carolina door toboot.............(not all but a fair number before anyone say's theydid that [;)] )So bouffie, a few little things wrong in your posts but as ever, I am not surprised about that.I do hope the mods will continue to keep me in touch with just how manyLF folks are still complaining that I dare to post on their site. Notsure if you are one of them bouffie but it appears that a new mode hasarrived, where people complain about posts but don't bother to do PM'sanymore. There that should put the cat back amongst the wotsits........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="jond"][quote user="Miki"][/quote]I think that I would agree that she was a ghastly old bag, though Viva's point was not lost on me: I received a fully funded University education between 1985 and 1988. I left broke, but with no debt. That education is something that I am profoundly grateful for, and I hope (believe) that I repaid its cost many times over through the additional taxes I was able to pay by dint of having had it.How any govt. of any hue can talk about "investing for the future" and "opening up education" and at the same time saddle graduates with debts of £20,000 before they even start working is beyond me. As a percentage of national budget, university fees and subsistance grants are not a huge item, so whatever motive can there be for not funding this sector? Do the govt. think that young people with substantial debt are less likely to rock the boat? Is it to get them into the habit of owing money so that they can continue to feed the consumer frenzy and house price inflation that seems to be the only motor for economic growth at the moment?[/quote]Whilst I would agree with most of your sentiments I think it's worth pointing out that HE participation doubled between the late 80s and early 90s (from 15% to 30% ) is now at 40% and the government (in their infinite wisdom) plans to achieve 50% in the near future. It was inevitable that this expansion could not be funded in the same way as had occurred previously. Although you say "fully funded", don't forget that you were assessed on your parents' income for grants and most parents had to contribute. If your parents couldn't(or wouldn't) contribute, you were unable to go. If you think that this sector is underfunded, you should see further education! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Moderator's Hat On.I just want to remind everyone that terms like "evil cow" and "old bag" breach the forum's code of conduct on sexist remarks.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Saligo Bay, oh dear, I am the partner of one of those from across the Irish Sea who considers himself BRITISH! Well, I know that the french en masse dislike the Dutch. But, as an Aussie, I take umbrage at being considered 'english' simply parce que I speak 'anglaise'. Well, the only probs I have avec les anglaise are with les enfants. And I know that many here agree with me. Pardon the vocab as I've moved my affections from Fosters/XXXX to a certain brand of Calvados. Things don't type as they used to, anyone in Calvodos' territory agree?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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