Deimos Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="viva"]Oh I would rather have Thatcher back than suffer any more of Blair and his crew.[/quote]This is where we part company Viva.As a foreigner in Britain during the Thatcher years, I felt like a 2nd class citizen, was told several times that I should go bug*er off back to France, that I was a bloody French scrounger, that I was paying less tax than a Brit (I was earning £19 a week at the time!)...I remember where I was when she left and I remember how I rejoiced![/quote]I was no lover of Lady Margaret and agree with Clair that many aspects of the UK during that era were decidedly “off”. However, I must agree with viva about Blair et. al.. Not relevant to the thread but some of what is going on there (UK) at the moment is quite disappointing. Fortunately his time is limited as more and more people are telling him “its time to go”. Unfortunately some things he has done cannot be undone by whoever comes next (e.g. the dead and injured).Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Bixy,if you need to ask then you must be really lacking in inteligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="le bouffon"]Bixy,if you need to ask then you must be really lacking in inteligence.[/quote] Or never learnt how to read bowlocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaligoBay Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I understood it. Should I worry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opas Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Renaud"]Now I belatedly understand what trolls and glove puppets are – should there not be a term for an individual using three identities. Bouffon, KatieKopyKat and Twinkle all seem to speak with one voice. The same one as Outcast and Mr Opas? The relentlessly get-personal posts are unpleasant. --- I would like to say how much I applaud Viva’s first post on this interesting thread. [/quote]I must admit Le Bouffon does sing a little off key but certainly not soprano, not the same voice or fingers come to that as the other 2 female posters you mention and you have got me in stitches at the thought of Le Bouffon on .a trampoline.As for Outcast and Mr O, do keep up!Mrs O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 ClairI am truely sorry that my oafish compatriots were so unpleasant to you. However the kind of pond slime who were insulting to you, would probably have been just as crass in Jim Callahan's time or John Major's or Tony Blair's. However this kind of xenophobic behavior is central to this thread - being rude and unfriendly to those who do not share your country of birth is decidedly nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="viva"]Oh I would rather have Thatcher back than suffer any more of Blair and his crew.[/quote]This is where we part company Viva.As a foreigner in Britain during the Thatcher years, I felt like a 2nd class citizen, was told several times that I should go bug*er off back to France, that I was a bloody French scrounger, that I was paying less tax than a Brit (I was earning £19 a week at the time!)...I remember where I was when she left and I remember how I rejoiced![/quote]Oh please don' t fall out with me Clair. I know you are not a scrounger at all, and I do live in France now and I love it loads! But she did OK by me for a good while ( although nobody admits voting for her now) and I didn't agree with all her policies but even less with the route Blair has taken and I did vote for him the first time around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Renaud"]Now I belatedly understand what trolls and glove puppets are – should there not be a term for an individual using three identities. Bouffon, KatieKopyKat and Twinkle all seem to speak with one voice. The same one as Outcast and Mr Opas? The relentlessly get-personal posts are unpleasant. --- I would like to say how much I applaud Viva’s first post on this interesting thread. [/quote]I accept that Twinkle and KKK are not sock puppets but certainly 'meat puppets' see definition below.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppetCan they not communicate to each other in the normal way, by private email? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="viva"]Oh please don' t fall out with me Clair. I know you are not a scrounger at all, and I do live in France now and I love it loads!But she did OK by me for a good while ( although nobody admits voting for her now) and I didn't agree with all her policies but even less with the route Blair has taken and I did vote for him the first time around![/quote]Not falling out, just a different point of view! [}]From where I was standing at the time, the whole Thatcher approach was not a positive thing. I realise it was progress for a lot of Brits after the strikes and piles of rubbish in the streets for weeks on end, but it did not feel good in my foreign shoes!However, as things are going on in France at the moment, I kinda wish for someone with balls to stand up the the noisy minority shouting in the streets to tell them they DO NOT represent the majority. They're just a loud minority, only heard because the majority is silent...But that is another topic altogether! [8o|]PS: I voted for Bliar first time too... Even got a letter from Nº10 after I wrote to say "well done, use it well"... More fool me! [:$] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Since you bring up the subject of Margaret Thatcher and the changes she forced through British society, I should like to draw a few parallels with modern day France. First a short history lesson!Britain had suffered years of economic decline from the late sixties onward. The country was burdened by debt, a stagnating economy and economic mismanagement by successive governments holding on to the ideas of John Maynard Keynes. (1886-1946). No doubt some of you had his ideas thrust down your throats at uni. He was a pioneer of the principle of full employment. Without boring you all rigid with economic principals it will suffice as shorthand to say he believed governments had a duty to provide and regulate employment, not markets. Those of you who are in business, now or then will know doubt understand easily what a fanciful principal full employment is. The world is now a global market place, like it or not. Employment is directly effected by markets. Governments can only look on and tinker at the edges. They are impudent in any influence or meaningful change. This means democratically elected governments of whatever colour. It’s just a fact of life we have to accept. Countries, like people need to make a living. All countries and companies need investment and capital from abroad.Then we come to France who has yet to realise the realities of economic life in the twenty-first century. A large section of the population, vested interests, unions and workers believe France stands alone against the tide of change. They still believe street protests mean something , as in the era of the Paris riots of 1968. The real result from protest is usually political fudge, flight of capital and continued stagnation.Ask yourself this question with hand on heart. As a capitalist investor would you risk investing in France? Rigid labour markets, state control which squeezes out incentive and initiatives. Taxation, corporate and personal beyond the acceptable norms.Without investment employment declines. Without a government prepared to stand up to the tyranny of labour unions and the mob, industrial anarchy results. We know that from the history of the UK. Thatcher turned the corner and made Britain prosper.France needs similar medicine, or, in my opinion the country will tumble into the abyss. I take no pleasure in that prospect. I love the country, people and culture. I just detest the system. The system did not make the country great, people did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 While I will admit through greated teeth that maggie did the right thing by the UK in the 80`s,the unions had played thier part,and she had to let them know who was boss,do you know how much even now a union boss gets paid and the underlings as well,expense accounts it is know wonder that the membership is at an all time low.As for France the time as come for a great big wake up call,the world does not move around France,but France it for the french people and does it`s best by them,abiet in never never land,la france will wake up but to what????????25% youth out of work, 12%+ adults out of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I don't agree with your opinions (and opinions they are, not facts). We obviously come at these questions from different political viewpoints and are unlikely to change. However, I feel strongly that you cannot separate the things you love, the country, culture etc. and the system. If (or when , who knows) the system changes, the culture and people will also change. For many of us, the changes to British society during and after the Thatcherite era were too great a price to pay for any actual or perceived economic benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWINKLE Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Russethouse"][quote] "You are correct. That's why they specify those below the median income, ie the point halfway between the richest and the poorest, not the mean (average)."My God, Dick! Are you this exciting in bed?[:S][/quote] Mod hat on - That is quite far enough on the personal post front, you may think it vastly amusing, however others do not. Please respect ALL the other members of the forum, some of which may not share your sense of humour nor the hi jacking of discussions . We all enjoy a little levity from time to time, please just choose your moment more carefully Mod hat off[/quote]So sorry Mrs. Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 For many of us, the changes to British society during and after theThatcherite era were too great a price to pay for any actual or perceived economic benefits. 100% true and I for one, will certainly not mourn her passing, forevery one person that benefitted, many others did not and in theend, those that thought they were doing well, found out the hard way andthat they had to pay dearly for their time of glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 "So sorry Mrs. Smith"Noooooooo! No relation. Come on twinkle. It was a bit close to the bone. You and Dicksmith got off to a very bad start. One of the worst I have ever seen.I hope this situation is recoverable.Miki's back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 So sorry Mrs. Smith Be very careful Twinkle - I'm not laughing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWINKLE Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="Tresco"] "So sorry Mrs. Smith"Noooooooo! No relation. Come on twinkle. It was a bit close to the bone. You and Dicksmith got off to a very bad start. One of the worst I have ever seen.I hope this situation is recoverable.Miki's back![/quote] He shouldn't have called me twinkly! And why didn't you come to my rescue when thingybob said that me, KKK and le bouffon (can you belive that) are all the same person?[:'(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le bouffon Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 What a load of rubbish,with out her who would we of had Mr Foot,do not make make laugh, next the welsh wind bag who went on to take the EU shilling(more like £500000 pa,not to mention the rest of his family)The unions ruined the UK in the 70`s it was maggie who had the balls to sort them out.How many that were out of work her day are out of work now?Now Blair wants to give it all away to the EU,just like the rebate,the same one he gave pieces of away last year,the fact that UK taxes will have to go up because of that may of passed you by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Well said Logan My sentiments exactly, just wish I could have said them as you did, well done.I personally don't believe that if France were to prosper and to have a brighter future it would mean that those here would lose their rural idyll that so many are frightened of losing. Unfortunately, change is inevitable regardless of whether France prospers or declines. Therefore, I for one do love France and the French way of life in the beautiful countryside (even with all of the little pink boxes popping up in some very surprising places ) but I also want to see it prosper and do well and have its young in employment.In fact, we would be moving over permanently much more quickly if it was easier to do business and to make a living in France. As it stands now we must wait until we can retire and unfortunately at that time will not be much of a contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 He shouldn't have called me twinkly! And why didn't you come to my rescue when thingybob said that me, KKK and le bouffon (can you belive that) are all the same person?But you are Twinkly! (to me anyway)The other point I'm not sure when that occurred, but I remember seeing it more than once (perhaps in this thread even?). I 'met' you later than others, and when I did it was clear to me you and Ms Kat knew eachother, but I also knew without doubt knew you had nothing to do with Le Bouffon. LOL to that notion.Everything will pan out as it will. see my reply to K Kat also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Hi Tresco, off both subjects I know, but just noticed your post after mine. As you can see I am still having trouble with those darn Smilies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Hi WJT.Yes, but are you crying because your smilies don't work, OR, because they are so horrible, OR for some other reason?Thread now officially off topic in thee different ways. Something to celebrate in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="le bouffon"]What a load of rubbish,with out her who wouldwe of had Mr Foot,do not make make laugh, next the welsh wind bag whowent on to take the EU shilling(more like £500000 pa,not tomention the rest of his family)The unions ruined the UK in the 70`s itwas maggie who had the balls to sort them out.How many that were out ofwork her day are out of work now?Now Blair wants to give it all away tothe EU,just like the rebate,the same one he gave pieces of away lastyear,the fact that UK taxes will have to go up because of that may ofpassed you by.[/quote]As they say in Poker, read 'em and weep (go on you know you can, even if the words don't appear to have any gaps !!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 [quote user="WJT"] I personally don't believe that if France were to prosper and to have a brighter future it would mean that those here would lose their rural idyll that so many are frightened of losing. [/quote]As one who is not planning a rural idyll but life in a fairly average working town, I object to being considered so superficial. That may be what you mean by liking the French way of life but it is not what I mean. If the aftermath of Thatcherism had been as you say then that might have justified some of her policies, but the truth is that the statistics for youth unemployment in the UK are kept artificially low by the use of government schemes and the and withdrawal of Jobseekers benefits from 16 and 17 year olds. Even given this, 1 in 4 16 to 17 year olds are registered as out of work. You cannot compare unemployment figures over past years any more as government policies have concentrated on moving people of every age group away from registering as unemployed, to fudge the employment figures. This is why there are so many people claiming incapacity benefit in the UK, to keep the unemployment figures artificially low. The same thinking has stopped the requirement for the over 60's to sign on, so they are also not counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 [quote user="Logan"]Sinceyou bring up the subject of Margaret Thatcher and the changes sheforced through British society, I should like to draw a few parallelswith modern day France. First a short history lesson!Britainhad suffered years of economic decline from the late sixties onward.The country was burdened by debt, a stagnating economy and economicmismanagement by successive governments holding on to the ideas of JohnMaynard Keynes. (1886-1946). No doubt some of you had his ideas thrustdown your throats at uni. He was a pioneer of the principle of fullemployment. Without boring you all rigid with economic principals itwill suffice as shorthand to say he believed governments had a duty toprovide and regulate employment, not markets. Thoseof you who are in business, now or then will know doubt understandeasily what a fanciful principal full employment is. The world is now aglobal market place, like it or not. Employment is directly effected bymarkets. Governments can only look on and tinker at the edges. They areimpudent in any influence or meaningful change. This meansdemocratically elected governments of whatever colour. It’s just a factof life we have to accept. Countries, like people need to make aliving. All countries and companies need investment and capital fromabroad.Thenwe come to France who has yet to realise the realities of economic lifein the twenty-first century. A large section of the population, vestedinterests, unions and workers believe France stands alone against the tide of change. They still believe street protests mean something , as in the era of the Paris riots of 1968. The real result from protest is usually political fudge, flight of capital and continued stagnation.Ask yourself this question with hand on heart. As a capitalist investor would you risk investing in France?Rigid labour markets, state control which squeezes out incentive andinitiatives. Taxation, corporate and personal beyond the acceptablenorms.Withoutinvestment employment declines. Without a government prepared to standup to the tyranny of labour unions and the mob, industrial anarchyresults. We know that from the history of the UK. Thatcher turned the corner and made Britain prosper.Franceneeds similar medicine, or, in my opinion the country will tumble intothe abyss. I take no pleasure in that prospect. I love the country,people and culture. I just detest the system. The system did not makethe country great, people did.[/quote]Logan - your (thoughtful) posting does deserve a response, but thisthread has gone so wildly of track that I'm afarid I cannot see muchpoint in replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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