Linguists have different brains?!

[Sprogster]

According to a study by Neuroscientists at the University College London, language ability is influenced by the shape and make up of white matter in your brain.

So for those of us who struggle with learning French, we have an excuse in that our brain is the wrong shape!

I suppose there is logic in that in the same way not everyone is born with the same ability and talent to be a good musician or artist, for some people learning a second language is far more difficult than for others.      

Thhe BBC education news link on this research is:    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4883418.stm 

[Iceni]

Speaking as a "died in the wool septic" this sounds a bit too much like wrong sort of snow on the line [;-)]

John

not

[PossumGirl]

This doesn't surprise me in the least, as I've always felt that people who are more musically oriented seem to have an easier time perfecting their accents in a second or third language than those who are not.

My husband lived in Los Angeles for 27 years, and although he speaks and writes English more than fluently, he has never lost a very pronounced French accent.  Most people tell me that although I have a small accent of "some kind," it is relatively minimal and not clearly an American accent.  JM is not particularly musical, can't carry a tune and sometimes can't tell two pieces of music apart.  I've always loved music and used to sing in a choir.

Over the years, I've noticed distinct differences in the abilities of people pronounce things well, even when they don't have a great deal of vocabulary.  It's always the more "musical" ones who have the best accent, all other knowledge being equal.

PG

[Anton Redman]

There was a recent comtrolled experiment on a group of traieed London Taxi drivers doing 'The Knowledge' . There were very clear changes in the brain scans of the succesful candidates. I do not see why learning languages should not preduce similar changes.

[Missy]

>>>In faster learners, brain scans showed a greater volume of white matter in the left auditory region known as Heschl's gyrus, where sound is processed. And there was a difference in its position in the right brain hemisphere between faster and slower learners. <<<

All in the left part of the brain... eh! [Www]  does prove why I always hold my head up with my left hand when laboring at writing my shopping list...

As to accent, it is something which percolates into a good listener I guess. I can not explain it but here are the facts:

I am French born, educated in France and the only member of my French family, for at least since the hills came upon the horizon, to have ventured outside the confine of the Hexagon. I came over to UK as a student some 25+ years ago. Whoever speaks to me for the first time, I detect a slight puzzled face as to my accent and the questioning will start :

-Aren't you far from home ?

-Yes!

-Bet you miss the sunshine of South Africa?

-¿Que? No! not from South Africa ...

-Australia then?

-Nada!

-Norway? Sweden? Russian?

- (in my thoughts!..... and here we go round the world! Spare me the chinese please!..) so to end the agony I say in the best Peter Sellers accent I can muster (absolutely NOT my favorite party trick!) that I am French!...

Embarrassment [:$]  ensue on the part of the interlocutor... it's like watching a dog retreating tail between legs! [8-)] I feel so sorry to have embarrassed you but then you did start the questioning.... Was it Confucius who said : 'curiosity killed the cat' ....  No my Gran did and you are not a cat [:D] ....

I apparently have a southern hemisphere accent which can be explained by the fact that my husband, though born in UK, went at the tender age of 1, to Southern Rhodesia (now that's last century!) when his parents decided to settle there. All his siblings were born there and some still live there. So over the years, I have absorbed this accent and threw the french one out of the window... which has had advantages and drawbacks... In the early years in UK, I certainly remember my french accent being a hindrance at being taken seriously when at work sometime... and having this 'other' accent makes me as a too-much-an-easy-going person...  Just can't win [;-)] them all...

Maybe they should examin my brain when I die... It's in my will for it to go to scientific research [;-)]...

So what's needed on the shopping list today [:-))]

 

[Bassman]

[quote user="PossumGirl"]This doesn't surprise me in the least, as I've always felt that people who are more musically oriented seem to have an easier time perfecting their accents in a second or third language than those who are not.

My husband lived in Los Angeles for 27 years, and although he speaks and writes English more than fluently, he has never lost a very pronounced French accent.  Most people tell me that although I have a small accent of "some kind," it is relatively minimal and not clearly an American accent.  JM is not particularly musical, can't carry a tune and sometimes can't tell two pieces of music apart.  I've always loved music and used to sing in a choir.

Over the years, I've noticed distinct differences in the abilities of people pronounce things well, even when they don't have a great deal of vocabulary.  It's always the more "musical" ones who have the best accent, all other knowledge being equal.

PG
[/quote]

 

Hmmmmmmm    OK I play Guitar, bass and sing in bands and have done for ... ooooh too many years [;-)] While my French is rubbish  it would seem my accent is OK cos' the few things I can say are usually understood ...and here's the rub ....they then assume I can speak French well and continue in rapid fire French that just goes straight over my head [:-))]  a bit slower and I might understand it[:D] so I have come to the conclusion that a good accent can be a hinderance if your vocabulary is limited [:D]

Our neighbour rattles away to me in French(or is it Breton[:-))]) and I'm totally lost but when she's speaking to MOH (whose French is waay better than mine) I can understand quite a bit of it [:)] I'm improving but it seems when I learn something new it pushes something old out [8-)]

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Bassman"]

 

Our neighbour rattles away to me in French(or is it Breton[:-))]) and I'm totally lost but when she's speaking to MOH (whose French is waay better than mine) I can understand quite a bit of it [:)] I'm improving but it seems when I learn something new it pushes something old out [8-)]

[/quote]

That's because you have to click on the little icon in your brain that empties out the "trash" folder!  Use it to get rid of the stuff you would MUCH rather forget!

PG

[Teamedup]

Bassman that is why listening to the tv or radio is great. One can hear it all without the brain going into panic about replying. And it is amazing how much goes in when the pressure is off.

My husband is muscial and he picked the language up very quickly and unlike me hasn't really got an accent either. Where as I still have mine. We know a french lady married to a scot and she has a scottish accent.

 

 

I suppose that  saying the 'brain' makes sense. I don't have the ear and even with some words I can become tongue tied, even now......... bouilloire, was one last night, could I heck say it. Everyone knew what I meant and were saying it to me and I just couldn't, although me laughing didn't help either.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Iceni"]

Speaking as a "died in the wool septic" [/quote]

Have you tried Dettol?  

[M]

There is a widely accepted but not fully understood correlation between ability in maths, music and languages. People who are good at one tend to be good at the others.

Regards,

M

[Patmobile]

[quote user="SaligoBay"][quote user="Iceni"]

Speaking as a "died in the wool septic" [/quote]

Have you tried Dettol?  

[/quote]

Even Dettol won't help when you're already dead.

Patrick

[Patmobile]

[quote user="Bassman"] 

Hmmmmmmm    OK I play Guitar, bass and sing in bands and have done for ... ooooh too many years [;-)] While my French is rubbish  it would seem my accent is OK cos' the few things I can say are usually understood ...and here's the rub ....they then assume I can speak French well and continue in rapid fire French that just goes straight over my head [:-))]  a bit slower and I might understand it[:D] so I have come to the conclusion that a good accent can be a hinderance if your vocabulary is limited [:D]

Our neighbour rattles away to me in French(or is it Breton[:-))]) and I'm totally lost but when she's speaking to MOH (whose French is waay better than mine) I can understand quite a bit of it [:)] I'm improving but it seems when I learn something new it pushes something old out [8-)]

[/quote]

I've studied your case, Mr. Bassman, and have come to the conclusion that your problem is twofold:

1)  Your head is full of little round yellow faces

2)  With your rock & roll lifestyle, you may have unwittingly been subjected to "passive smoking" of some dodgy substances.

There is little we brain surgeons can do about either of these ailments, but I suggest you play your guitar only outdoors in future, and take an Alka-Seltzer or 2 if the little men don't go away.

Patrick

[Sprogster]

One of my thoughts for the original post, were the implications for those people looking to move to France and find a skilled job. In that for some people, learning French to a high degree of fluency to find skilled work might not be realistically achievable regardless of effort?

[Gardian]

You're absolutely right, Sprogster, but it's a truism, isn't it?

My French (incl accent) is reasonably OK, but most other things in life .................. Certainly not music, and though I like what I like, I could never play it.

For most, "Learning French to a high degree of fluency etc, etc" isn't realistically achievable.

Works the other way too. There was a French guy on the Today prog yesterday morning - he was interviewed because he wrote an article last week about French life (strikes etc). He could speak English, but was virtually uninitelligible. Just one of those people: a mumbler. 

[Bassman]

[quote user="Patmobile"][quote user="Bassman"] 

Hmmmmmmm    OK I play Guitar, bass and sing in bands and have done for ... ooooh too many years [;-)] While my French is rubbish  it would seem my accent is OK cos' the few things I can say are usually understood ...and here's the rub ....they then assume I can speak French well and continue in rapid fire French that just goes straight over my head [:-))]  a bit slower and I might understand it[:D] so I have come to the conclusion that a good accent can be a hinderance if your vocabulary is limited [:D]

Our neighbour rattles away to me in French(or is it Breton[:-))]) and I'm totally lost but when she's speaking to MOH (whose French is waay better than mine) I can understand quite a bit of it [:)] I'm improving but it seems when I learn something new it pushes something old out [8-)]

[/quote]

I've studied your case, Mr. Bassman, and have come to the conclusion that your problem is twofold:

1)  Your head is full of little round yellow faces
2)  With your rock & roll lifestyle, you may have unwittingly been subjected to "passive smoking" of some dodgy substances.

There is little we brain surgeons can do about either of these ailments, but I suggest you play your guitar only outdoors in future, and take an Alka-Seltzer or 2 if the little men don't go away.

Patrick
[/quote]

 

Hmmmm I think you may just have a couple of valid points there Patrick [;-)][:)]

[Catalpa]

[quote user="M"]

There is a widely accepted but not fully understood correlation between ability in maths, music and languages. People who are good at one tend to be good at the others.

[/quote]

I'm sure this applies to me. I've no real aptitude for maths outside the practical - managing budgets etc. I am pretty much tone deaf though I love music - someone can sing distinctly off-key (according to TOH) and I don't hear a problem. Sometimes when I'm trying to pronounce something correctly, my French teacher can repeat it to me several times and I cannot hear the difference between what she says and I carefully repeat. It is incredibly frustrating. On the upside, I do read French fairly well now but that's eyes + memory rather than ear / interpretation + memory [:-))]

[Teamedup]

I was good at math. I hear when music is off, even a nuiance. Can I sing, not on your life. Can I hear the subtilties of french pronunciation in conversation, depends, but for a lot of things I can't. I always have to ask if they mean on top or underneath. My ears don't get it first time,  unless it is said slowly and precisely, then as I have no trust in my auditory powers, I still check.

I was just wondering how you knew that your accent and french was good IH . I have had people tell me that their accents were good and that their french is good and it has been worse than mine. I have also had people tell me that they muddled through, and their accents, I just know, are far far better than mine as is their french. And there have been those who 'know' too. So how do you 'know', please tell.

 

 

[Just Katie]

Well when I speak french in france everybody laughs and spurts their beer about the place.  Twinkles husband and his mates speak english with a strong south walean accent.  Also, I sometimes think I am speaking in english when really I am speaking in french.

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Teamedup"]

.

I was just wondering how you knew that your accent and french was good IH . I have had people tell me that their accents were good and that their french is good and it has been worse than mine. I have also had people tell me that they muddled through, and their accents, I just know, are far far better than mine as is their french. And there have been those who 'know' too. So how do you 'know', please tell.

 

[/quote]

I think you know if your French is good by how much you understand and how much others understand you. As to accent, I don't think we can really tell much about our own accents and have to rely on what others say.  It's like hearing your voice on a tape recording or seeing yourself on television; it's always a horrible shock!

PG

[Gardian]

Teamedup - I think that I said "Reasonably OK" rather than "Good", but no matter.

I suppose that as was said, I can understand most conversations and get 90% of it, even if I don't register every single word. Difficulties arise with slang, local accents and speed of delivery. Telephone conversations are the hardest.

As for my spoken French, it's undoubtedly accented, but as for whether it's a reasonable accent, other French say that it is. My neighbour says that he'll begin to believe that I speak really well when I get all my genders right! Eighteen months over here has improved my vocabulary umpteen times over.

The key to it for me is that I was taught properly at school. It had a strong Languages Dept and you were taught how to conjugate verbs properly. Having done Latin as well, it tended to come a lot more easily. Students were encouraged to spend 3 weeks 'on exchange' and I did that for 3 years running - that sort of total immersion makes you learn very quickly. 

[Teamedup]

I was just wondering that was all.