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LF May edition/Da Vinci Code


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I'm sorry, I have a simple point of view. If there isn't any evidence, then I don't believe it until someone finds some. I certainly don't believe in 'truth' when it is in inverted commas! All the stuff about Mary is modern projection - in an age of feminism we expect to see theories which support - feminism!

I boggle when people tell me that something 'could be true' therefore they believe it! All the mental discipline of a blancmange, I am afraid. You need persuasive evidence that something IS true, preferably from a number of sources. Christ's marital status cannot be inferred from the gospels and the earliest church tradition was that he was unmarried. No document has ever been found which says Christ was married and none stating he was married to Magdalen. Therefore we must infer that he was not married to her.

You say that you gain extra insights when you read the gospels in the

original. You have done this, I assume? If not you are just choosing to

accept the translation of one group of scholars rather than another.

Except, of course, that one group is huge and largely in agreement and

the other (your choice) is small and disregarded.

I'm afraid that the idea of a secret society (Opus Dei or New World

Order) which has existed for millennia, and for which there is no

evidence is too far-fetched to entertain, especialy as it controls the world. I do know that some politicians have religious agendas, and they scare the cr*p out of me, but that isn't the same thing at all.

But the serious point is this - the Bishop is there to promote the religious views of his church. That includes which books are Holy Writ and those which are not. These were set by Bishop Irenaeus before the year 200, so cannot be claimed as later 'conspiracies'. Incidentally, Irenaeus believed that Jesus was on earth until at least 79AD. Of course the church and its beliefs have evolved in the past 2000 years - that might be anticipated - but that doesn't entail Illuminati, Opus Dei etc.

You might like to look here.

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[quote user="Monika"]

Ali, I agree with your hubby that you should read Carol Drinkwater's "The Olive Farm" and her two other books, which are "The Olive Season" and the "The Olive Harvest". I am reading it the second time  (I very rarely read a book twice) but I am trying to keep myself in the mood after a tediously long renovation.

I think the books are pretty good and I admire her for her honesty and courage in letting the reader look into quite intimate aspects of her life (1st book being in love, 2nd book miscarrying her baby, 3rd book her partner leaving her and having to fend for herself).  I have read the Da Vinci Code, and found it quite boring but I will try Angels and Demon (as it's been recommended as "gripping").

[/quote]

 

Oh Monika - I don't believe it (Victor Meldrew moment !) if EVER any books were destined to be firelighters then Carol Drinkwaters are it (or, sadly, them!) the first one could just scrape into being readable, the second and third are an excersise in  an ego boost for a once average actress... how or why  I ever read the third one I still wonder - talk about 'travel in hope' .......

What is worse is that books 2 & 3 were marketed as 'French interest'...........[:(]

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Sorry Alliards, nothing I recognised about real France in The Olive Farm, not that I am very far into it.

And also there are lots of things we can't get in France.  If you like chocky things then unless you are well into pralines then the choice is very limited.

And the Archbishop of York, well I too am not surprised that he is not happy with all this, it is his job to protect the church and it's image. Personally I think what he believes in is as much gobbledy gook and fantasy as the Dan Brown stuff, but there you go, he is the religious establishment and is only doing his job.

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Dick

You say that your mind boggles at people who say something 'could be true' therefore they believe it. I wonder how you would have got on in the Renaissance with your accepting and unenquiring mind? It was a good job that we had people such as Copernicus and Galileo with their beliefs, or we may still be thinking that the Earth was flat and is the centre of the Universe. Who is to say that Barbara Thering's work will not be proved true some day? Though I do think that after 2000 years of the Church suppressing and destroying documents and interpreting documents to suit their agenda it is unlikely.

The reason I put truth in inverted commas is simply that I don't know the truth and neither do you or the Arch Bishop, but if people accept that Jesus was the Son of God, rose from the dead and performed miracles as 'truth', why is the possibility that he was the partner of Mary Magdalene so hard to accept?  I would argue that the Churches belief that Jesus turned water into wine is far more unbelievable than the possibility of him having fathered children. However, if you ever get time to read Barbara Thering's book, she fowards a far more plausible explanation for many events which have been deemed miracles, loaves and fishes, angels and the early rituals of the Essene. Her academic study is based on primary evidence.

No, I have never read the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Gospels in their original languages, however my husband read a literal translation of parts of them as part of his PhD study some years ago and as this is an area that interests me, I do pick his brains from time to time;neither he nor I are feminists.

I don't believe in any secret societies involved in a  Dan Brown based cover up (though I am glad to see that we both agree on Opus Dei ) moreover, many of Dan Brown ideas are fanciful and fictitious. But that does not alter my belief that the Church has systematically ignored even destroyed documentary evidence that has not suited its own agenda.

It is only in recent history that we are able to openly question church dogma without fear of being branding a heretic and burning in hell.But some will question , some won't and for others faith will close their minds to anything other than what the Church tells them.

I did briefly look at the website you suggested but I prefer to get my information from a more academic source rather than an USA paranormal conspiracy site.

Finally, I agree with you in acknowledging that the Arch-Bishop has got a job to do and that is to keep his flock happy.

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I'm not going to argue this with you, Beryl, if your reading of the USA's foremost SCEPTICAL site is that it promotes the paranormal! You also haven't read what I wrote about Irenaeus, the selection of the gospels was done in the 2nd century, not over a period of 2000 years - no-one has rejected a gospel for quite a while now.

I believe that the moon is made of cheese. You can't prove it isn't, therefore I am right. It looks like cheese if you squint. This is the reductio of your argument, the 'Burden of Proof' fallacy. An explanation is here.

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Dick

I wasn't arguing with you, just putting forward a point of view.

What you stated about Irenaeus was mentally noted but of little relevance to this unless one gets ones facts from Wikipedia ! Especially as  Iranaeus declared  Jesus himself had not only been practising the wrong religion but  that Jesus was also mistaken in his beliefs ! Moreover, the original Nazarenes who actually followed the teachings of Jesus and James, were in the middle of the second century most unpopular with Iranaeus and rest of the Pauline Christians and this also may have affected his judgement.

I don't for one moment think that my view reduces to the Burden of Proof fallacy that you like to quote so often. Would you criticise Stephen Hawking in the same way  that you have Thering, for his suggesting things about the Universe that we cannot see, and therefore cannot be sure that they exist either?

Why not give the book a go, rather than dismissing it out of hand?

But that's the last from me on this subject for now.

Best wishes

Beryl

 

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I'm merely correcting an error which seems to have crept in here. The questionable organisation is not Opus Dei but the Priory of Sion.

The Priory of Sion has not existed for centuries but is a hoax dating back to the 1950s or so and has been acknowledged as such by its "founder".

The majority of the so-called historical evidence for both Brown's execrable folly and the earlier Holy Blood and Holy Grail is 20th Century Fiction.
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1. Carole Drinkwater's Olive Farm.  Wouldn't feed it to the dog.  Load of drippy, self-indulgent, it'll-sell-if-it's-about-France rubbish.

2. Abbé Pierre (of Emmaus fame) was asked about these allegations that Jesus married MM and had children with her.  He said it made no difference to his faith at all whether Jesus was a virgin or whether he succumbed to human emotions.  It just doesn't matter, there are more important things to worry about all around you.  Wise man.

 

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Opus Dei was 2Oth century too, I thought what Dick was alluding to but didn't mention by name were the Knights Templar , they were given a mention in the Brown book too if I remember.

Dick's earlier posting ... "Opus Dei or New World Order" ... Whether or not I approve of it, Opus Dei is an organisation which enjoys legitimacy within the Roman Catholic Church. It is not concerned with any secret bloodline. On the other hand, "Priory of Sion" is a hoax organisation supposedly guarding this great secret.

That Jesus did not die on the cross is, I believe, a standard belief of Islam. The Australian authority is hardly earth shattering.

Thank you, SB, for bringing some reason into this dispute.
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[quote user="Clarkkent"]Opus Dei was 2Oth century too, I thought what Dick was alluding to but didn't mention by name were the Knights Templar , they were given a mention in the Brown book too if I remember. Dick's earlier posting ... "Opus Dei or New World Order" ... Whether or not I approve of it, Opus Dei is an organisation which enjoys legitimacy within the Roman Catholic Church. It is not concerned with any secret bloodline. On the other hand, "Priory of Sion" is a hoax organisation supposedly guarding this great secret. That Jesus did not die on the cross is, I believe, a standard belief of Islam. The Australian authority is hardly earth shattering. Thank you, SB, for bringing some reason into this dispute.[/quote]

You are correct, the Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross, hence the reason why they regard him as just another Prophet and not the Son of God. The "Australian authority" view may not therefore be earth shattering but she has attempted to support her theories and I accept that is all they are, with reason and documentary evidence. So you are clearly implying that Thering's view is supported by over a billion of the World's population. I find that pretty compelling!

I find your remark 'reason' a little condescending, I don't expect you to necessarily hold with my views but this is a subject that I have studied and will continue to do long after Dan Brown goes out of vogue, I am not an expert but I endeavour to think with some degree of reason and logic. I resent being thought of as some kind of 'blancmange'.  Furthermore, how can you suggest that I am being unreasonable when it is apparent that those who have challenged me have not read widely on this subject?

If  you mean by 'reason', that there are more important things to worry about other than whether Jesus was married, fathered children etc, I suppose that depends on your point of view. I am not a Christian any more because whilst I accept that a man called Jesus did live, and that he was remarkable, I do not believe he was the son of God. Needlesss to say the Christian church would not last much longer if everyone shared my view!

But to go back to Dan Brown's work, why has this work of 'fiction' caused the Church to speak out?

It is only by being allowed to study and question ALL religions openly that we may one day all be able to live in peace, the alternative is for adherents of religion to follow their faiths blindly and thus the bigotry and hatred will continue also.

You will be pleased to know that I won't be posting further on this as I am going to the UK for a couple of weeks to spoil my other grandchildren![:)]

 

 

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[quote user="Owens88"]

[quote user="beryl"]

The Church has held power over peoples' minds and lives for millenium, supplanting christian festivals over pagan ones and for many years gaining control through fear. [/quote]

Well put.

 

[/quote]

I will go FURTHER and say that :  ALL religions HAVE held and ARE holding and WILL hold power over people's minds and lives for milleniums gone and milleniums to come, supplanting human goodness over its evil counterpart and for ALWAYS gaining control through fear!

My sincere apologies to have paraphrased Beryl and Owens88 and my sincere apologies too if I have offended anyone of any belief.

As in the word of this 1970's song 'Winchester Cathedral' by Crosby, Still, Nash & Young : >>Too many things happened in the name of Christ that I can't believe at all <<

 

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How has the "Olive Farm" crept into this highly intellectual discussion? Nobody denies it, it is very light reading, self indulgent, like all autobiographies and yes about France! I reckon my Labrador would have loved to eat it!  
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[quote user="Dick Smith"]'Name of the Rose' is wonderful, but has anyone (or anyone they have met) ever got to the end of 'Foucault's Pendulum'?
[/quote]

No, but look, here I am bending over to pick up that gauntlet you've dropped.  I will of course need to GET a copy first, but I bet I can read it from beginning to end.   Betcha betcha betcha.

You'll owe me a decent beer if I do it, okay? 

SB (selling herself cheap AGAIN!)

 

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[quote user="kipper"]NEW PAGE IN THE BIBLE FOUND

It belongs at the beginning of the book just before Genesis. Scholars have been searching for centuries looking for it. It contains only the following text.

"The events, characters and firms depicted in this book are purely ficticious. Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead or to actual events of the book or firms is purely coincidental."
[/quote]

I must admit whilst I choose not to go to church I do have christian beliefs.  I also understand those who choose not to believe through lack of evidence (although believing without evidence is faith).  I would not knock those who do not believe, neither would I push my beliefs in their faces.  However I do find this post quite offensive and wonder if the poster would openly and publicly offend islam.

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If you can read it all (and I'll be asking questions later) I will personally nominate you for sainthood. You won't know, because by then your brain will be fried.

I'm sort of reading Eco's latest - 'The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana' - at the moment. It may be going somewhere, but I'm not certain. (p155 out of 449)

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]If you can read it all (and I'll be asking

questions later) I will personally nominate you for sainthood. You

won't know, because by then your brain will be fried.

I'm sort

of reading Eco's latest - 'The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana' - at

the moment. It may be going somewhere, but I'm not certain. (p155 out

of 449)

[/quote]

 Dick,

 Too many places to see, too many people to meet, too many restos

to visit, too many too many's and too many thing to do..... so a book

gets 25 pages, 50 at most to capture my interest, after that, it's curtains or dans le feu to you and I. [:D]

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That's the trouble with Eco. You know that he's a huge intellectual, and the Name of the Rose was brilliant, and so you try another one. And it takes ages to realise that perhaps everyone does have one good novel in them, and that was his.

And you keep on because there might be a fabulous payoff at the end, but you're pretty certain that you're fooling yourself.

Which takes us back to women, I suppose...

And now I'm so depressed I'm off out to have a pint (Youngs) with Graham (http://www.aulton.demon.co.uk/html/more_friends.html)

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[quote user="kipper"]
[/quote]

 

>>> kipper wrote:NEW PAGE IN THE BIBLE FOUND

It belongs at the beginning of the book just before Genesis. Scholars have been
searching for centuries looking for it. It contains only the following text.

"The events, characters and firms depicted in this book are purely ficticious.
Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead or to actual events of the book
or firms is purely coincidental."

    I must admit whilst I choose not to go to church I do have christian beliefs.  I
also understand those who choose not to believe through lack of evidence
(although believing without evidence is faith).  I would not knock those who do
not believe, neither would I push my beliefs in their faces.  However I do find
this post quite offensive and wonder if the reader would openly and publicly
offend islam.<<<

Kipper, I think your posting did not appear on the thread as per normal... but as it was in my Email box I am posting it here for the benefit of the other contributors.  Which posting/writer are you refering to ?

Sorry Mr Moderator if it was not supposed to be published... You can delete if you wish [:$]

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