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That'll Teach 'em......................


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Anyone been watching this programme - great viewing - reminded me of my school days - but it wasn't as far back as the fifties.[:P]  It has been great to see the effect of discipline on todays youngsters and also the way they have responded to it.  Hope the Government have been watching - they might learn a thing or two...................then again,  maybe not!![:(]
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But they are not really dishing out the 50's/60's discipline are they [;-)] for what some of them are doing we would have got the cane, slipper, ruler across the knuckles etc. etc. I must admit I didn't like it at the time ..but it worked [:'(]
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I don't think it worked. It just hurt for a bit.

When I was first a Head of House I had a cane (I was issued with it but never used it) - I couldn't square the idea of someone sending a kid to me and me hitting them with a stick because someone else had got annoyed. Especially as it would be the same people sending the same kids all the time, and I doubt very much if the issues would be clear-cut.

Policing  by consent...

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[quote user="Benjamin"]Harley, have you ever thought of applying for a Moderator's job? Your posting seems to have immaculate credetials!!!!!!!!!!!!


Benjamin

please don't ban me ; it was only a joke.
[/quote]

Absolutely Benjamin - I'd help you with your spelling first though, you naughty boy[:P] Seriously though, I'm not sure I'd want to be a Mod.  It would mean changing my user name to something like Miss Whiplash ( I'm not into a verbal caning[:$]) just healthy debate.[;-)]

Bet Tinkle has something to say about that!!

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My memories of school in the 1950s and 1960s are that yes, plenty of teachers had canes and the like, several used them to cause actual physical harm.

But they were not the teachers who actually managed to teach me anything, or whom I remember today with a degree of affection and respect. The Daily Mail faction bemoan the lack of respect in the 21st century, but forget that true respect needs to be earned rather beaten into you. Lack of respect is nothing new - maybe because the physical option is not open to second-rate teachers now it just appears worse.

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I think that is absolutely true, Will, and I spent 20 years dealing with the fallout from the lessons of a realtively small number of teachers. My favourite was that whenever I managed to calm a situation down, get both sides to agree to get on with a bit of work, it would be the teacher who would poke a finger in the wound...

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So Dick, the corollary to what you are saying, is that corporal punishment is not effective ( as well as being banned, as we know) and the lack of respect and discipline experienced today, is down to poor teachers only?

Hmm...........I started at an excellent grammar school in 1953.

A few years back it was the 75th anniversary dinner of the Old Boy's Assoc. Wonderful evening!

On my table, the ages ranged from mid-thirties to seventy three.(The 73 year old was sitting next to me and earlier in the evening had been proudly passing around pictures of himself, 250 feet up the mainmast of a Russian clipper which he had helped crew over the Atlantic in mid-winter![8-|]).

Towards the end of the dinner, I took a straw poll. I asked everyone who had been caned by the head (a feared punishment) to raise their hand. The majority did.

I then asked how many had vandalised a telephone box: beaten a Granny; beaten their wives or children, etc, etc, etc. OK, so they wouldn't admit it, OK. However, the point was driven home.

Most of the social problems were expelled early on: and oh yes, the then Grading Test did allow some "Rotten Apples" through.

The vast majority of ex-boys, however, were apparently well balanced good citizens, whatever that means!

As en ex Co-opted County Council School Governor, back in the late 80s (LMS era), of a problem secondary  school, my experience was somewhat different.

I would say, from direct experience, that yes, the Primary and Junior teachers had in the main failed, dismally, as of the kids meant to be starting their 11+ syllabus (sorry! I still think in terms of the older system of schools and years) circa 90% were at aged 7+ in Reading, Writing, Comprehension, and Arithmatic. No hope of them starting the syllabus then.

We at that time had the services of a fantastic remedial teacher, county funded. Within six months (three sessions per week only), she had 90% of the 90% up to 12+.

Then of course, County took away the funding on the basis that it was not essential![Www]

But then, these same "Experts", at that time, decided that Dyslexia was not real! Something I happened to know a mite about, as a friend and both his children were hugely dyslexic. Luckily, he was very wealthy (Self-made despite his handicap), and his kids both received special remedial help: one became a TV producer: and the other CEO of a large IT company.

Makes you think......................

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No, I don't think that bad education is down to poor teachers only (though I've met some stinkers), but I think that in some schools (like mine) there are such a range of kids with multiple 'problems' that what would once have been perfectly good teachers can't cope. Sometimes, I can't either.

As to why that is - well as you can imagine we discuss that long and hard, but there are no clear conclusions. Some kids are excluded (in the social sense) by class or race or status (such as refugee kids), some exclude themselves by behaviour or non-attendance, some are wrecked by bad parenting, others are caught up in drugs or criminal activities. Some are caught up in the drug or criminal activities of their parents...

We are saddled with a National Curriculum that is often irrelevant. I had a group of black girls come to me, very nicely, and ask if we could do a unit on black history in the UK. We don't do it already because it isn't explicitly in the National Curriculum. The boys and girls who would once have left to employment or apprensticeships at 15 are now expected to stay to 18 and then compete for even the simplest jobs with 5 GCSE people. It seems as though you can't get a job anywhere without academic qualifications, yet we could fill out Carpentry and Joinery class three times over if we had the staff.

It is hard to bear when people blame us teachers for this! We are the ones trying to make sense of all this in the classroom, and putting up with a lot of social casualties whilst we are doing it.

It is all massively more complicated than it was in the 50s, or even when I started teaching (first practice in 1969). There isn't an easy answer because schools reflect the society that fills them, and society is very different from what it was.

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I would say, from direct experience, that yes, the Primary and Junior teachers had in the main failed, dismally, as of the kids meant to be starting their 11+ syllabus (sorry! I still think in terms of the older system of schools and years) circa 90% were at aged 7+ in Reading, Writing, Comprehension, and Arithmatic. No hope of them starting the syllabus then.

My sister has been teaching primary school children for thirty years and her philosophy has always been that learning should be fun.  I know that she is well respected by colleagues and parents alike, and much loved by her pupils.  She would be very upset by the observation above as it implies that children are not getting a good grounding these days.  There are many excellent teachers around today but the change in society and attitude makes theirs' a very difficult job and I take my hat off to them. 

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I think Dick is spot on when he says that there is no easy answer. Although I am sure he is correct when he says that primary education is failing, I hink he will certainly acknowledge that there are still good teachers there, struggling against the odds.

There have always been good and bad teachers, and good and bad parents. For many reasons, the 'bad' kids which result from the relatively poor teaching and parenting enjoy a higher profile now. Maybe it's all part of the culture of celebrating the second-rate and nondescript, which may not have established itself fully in France yet but is certainly arriving.

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It wasn't me that said that primary schools are failing - I'd get killed if Julie reads it!

I think that a lot of primary schools give kids a weak grasp of some aspects of reading and writing, because they make a trade off with the numeracy and literacy strategies which they have to teach - so general reading, for example, gets squeezed out. The best primary teachers are superb, but it's a demoralising task these days.

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The best teachers are superb, full stop. But I guess some of it depends on the leadership that their head is able to give them. My grandfather was head of a secondary modern in Coventry, I've been reading the old boys web site and it gives me quite a warm glow to see the repect that ex staff and students held him in. I once posted to say that "I'm realistic enough to understand that not everyone would remember him with fondness" and had replies to say that even those who were punished hand respect for him. That school was held in great respect in Coventry (I know it reads as a brag but I really am trying to highlight the influence that a good head can have [:$] )

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]

We are saddled with a National Curriculum that is often irrelevant. I had a group of black girls come to me, very nicely, and ask if we could do a unit on black history in the UK. We don't do it already because it isn't explicitly in the National Curriculum.

[/quote]

Dick I agree with your first para that teachers are facing a wider diversity of challenges than are correct. I have some supportive examples - but they aren't for a public forum.

HOWEVER

The extract I quoted just made me wonder a bit. It is easy to blame all ills on others.

Are you saying that you might have already included black history if the national curriculum did not exist? Or are you saying the NC is slow to catch up or even wrong ?

You are also allowed to teach more than the curriculum aren't you ?

 

Cheers

 

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The NC in history is a bit odd after 1945, and yes we are free to teach black history - we just don't, which I personally find odd. I am planning to (this is my first year back after 4 years out of schools) but I want to involve pupils in the planning and delivery, which is proving hard work. Some schools, and mine is one of them, tend to play it safe. In the days of Ofsted you have to be confident to take any form of risk. But things are changing under a new, charismatic head, and most staff are embracing the change with enthusiasm.

Of course we often have the answer to our ills in our own hands, but kids nowadays bring wagonloads of baggage in ways they didn't in the past. That was the original thrust.

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[quote user="Harley"]

Bet Tinkle has something to say about that!!

[/quote]

Do you mean TWINKLE?

 Why on earth would I have something to say on this subject?  I know I'm not the brightest light-bulb on the forum (although I like to think I'm the shiniest[:)])

   Please enlighten me Harley.

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I think that a lot of primary schools give kids a weak grasp of some aspects of reading and writing, because they make a trade off with the numeracy and literacy strategies which they have to teach - so general reading, for example, gets squeezed out.

Not in the school where my sister is a teacher.  She still listens to all of her pupils reading skills every day besides encouraging their social skills (why it's not nice to hit little Johnny),  practical skills (e.g. tying their shoe laces) etc., etc.

I often tell her that I wouldn't walk a mile in her shoes for any amount of money !

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What an interesting and enlightening thread this has turned out to be! [:)]

The school I mentioned earlier, Dick, I believe to be an excellent example of some of the malaise facing education per se, in the UK.

Originally, it was two schools: then they (girls and boys) were merged. This became a split site school, across a very busy urban road. Sensible. The two heads had to compete for one headship.

Unfortunately, the lady won! I say unfortunate, as she was a progressive liberal educationlist and bearing in mind the catchment zone, then, she was far too weak and namby pamby to take control, with predictable results. The previous boy's head, became a deputy. he was fantastic, a great teacher and liked and respected by all the kinds and staff too. (As a matter of record, he later moved on - with considerable backing from many governors like myself - to take over a problem secondary school which he turned around in short order to the point where it now has parents banging on the doors to admit their kids!).

My own view is that education became an experiment for both social scientists and politicans in the 60s. neatly forgetting that the future of Great Britian plc and the kids was at stake: these were not lab rats, they were people: and holistically, the system has failed them: and us: dismally![:-))]

The reality was further worsened by government's knee-jerk reaction to  realising, far too late, that the post-war Baby Bulge meant that there were sufficient schools and teachers to meet forward demand. Enter the Noveau teacher, who was not well qualified: yet seemed to form the nucleus of the extremely militant left-wing unionist. And it's happening again! Right now! Add Teaching Assistants and it's all a recipe for even bigger disaster.

 Back to the school! Since those days and after the Board of Governors became more organised and energetic (mainly thanks to the deputy chair, a good friend of mine, a brilliant early retired nuclear physicist) and the head retired, the school converted to GMS. A new excellent head was recruited: sadly, moving from the north of England, he could not afford, finally to relocate: indeed, for nine months, he "Camped" in the deputy chair of governor's house, whilst he vainly tried to buy some suitable house of his own.

The school is now a great success: with parents banging on the doors etc. Only a few years before and for some twenty years, it was a school with a reputation: and to be avoided at all costs.

I moved on to HFE and became an External Examiner and Moderator to our local Polytech-University (now a full university) attached to the Business School faculty at MBA level. Since then (I resigned my tenure owing to professional pressures), I have been involved on a very much ad hoc basis to one of the London universities, both the business school and the technology areas.

My sad conclusions are that the Polytech Universities were a reprise of various knee-jerk reactions to try and massage youth unemployment figures. "Degrees" in an eclectic range of pointless subjects, such as media studies, hairdressing health and hygiene et al, have both denegrated HFE, prostituted the university system and brainwashed parents who brag their brat is "Off to Uni!" Sad.

Forsooth, we even had a cleaner a few years ago, who boasted a Masters Degree in some mickey mouse health area. Amazing, since as a cleaner she was totally useless. I wouldn't say thick, but the expression two short planks comes to mind!

Unfortunately, I developed the reputation as Real World Man, when sitting on SAP sessions. By this time, the ersatz universities had all cottoned on to the wheeze of filling their groves of pretend academe with foreign students. Great ! Bums on Seats = Cash = Continuum for Salaries =  Perpetuation of Scam.

Boringly, I repeated my mantra about MBA students who could neither read nor write English properly and how could they be marked with integrity? I kept bringing other Examiner's and lecturers and Hof D's focus onto GEMAT, for example. A prophet crying in the wilderness I'm afraid.

As an employer, I find great difficulty with young earnest applicants who cannot write at least reasonably. They cannot seem to grasp that business letters must be punctilious in meaning, as any potential ambiguity can mean a law suit! Deaf ears. Each day, I receive letters which start, "Further to our telephone conversation." Full stop, paragraph!

Punctuation? Makes letters look "Messy!" They are full of smart answers, yet no real knowledge.

"Send this letter to Belgium." "Is that near Canada?"

Local Head teacher to hall full of potential employers and businessmen: " Spelling is not important:  self-expression and conveying meaning is what it's all about!" Predictable howls of derision from hall!

When one listener takes pointed issue, with comments like, "I don't run an Exenstentialist play school! I run a business, with public credibility and efficiency of primary imortance!", Head fails to understand and starts to argue, vehemently, that employer is wrong and Head is right!

Give me strength!

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="TWINKLE"][quote user="Harley"]

Bet Tinkle has something to say about that!!

[/quote]

Do you mean TWINKLE?

 Why on earth would I have something to say on this subject?  I know I'm not the brightest light-bulb on the forum (although I like to think I'm the shiniest[:)])

   Please enlighten me Harley.

[/quote]

Sorry Twinkle, I just thought you of all people would find something funny to say about a Mod called Miss Whiplash![:D]  You have such a great sense of humour.

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The thing I love about this programme is seeing the older style of teaching and how well the children are responding to it, particularly the Sciences, which are just not being taken up as much now.  They also seem to be realising that a level of behaviour is expected in and out of class and when they achieve it they are treated with respect and this then helps the lessons run more smoothly.  They are beginning to learn the subject during the lesson time but also, it seems, they are learning that they want to learn.  Is this down to what they are being taught, the way it is being taught or both  do you think?  Apart from one child, who has been expelled, I have only seen a positive response.  Perhaps I have missed something.  I don't agree with caning or the slipper, but these teachers are acheiving the discipline without it.  Some of these children are predicted to acheive the highest grades in their GCSE's but they can't spell words like bachelor.  Do you think that when we use the word discipline nowadays that people automatically assume this means physical punishment?  Discipline can be acheived without it.  I think children crave this kind of guidance.  It makes them feel secure.  They learn where the boundaries are and can be more confident because of it.  Surely if they are not given boundaries when they are young,  they will grow up thinking that there are no restrictions in life and they can do and say what they want, when they want and behave the way they want with no risk of punishment.  Then they come up against the Law and they realise that there are consequences to unsocial behaviour.  By this time it's too late![:(]

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[quote user="Harley"]

The thing I love about this programme is seeing the older style of teaching and how well the children are responding to it, particularly the Sciences, which are just not being taken up as much now.  They also seem to be realising that a level of behaviour is expected in and out of class and when they achieve it they are treated with respect and this then helps the lessons run more smoothly.  They are beginning to learn the subject during the lesson time but also, it seems, they are learning that they want to learn.  Is this down to what they are being taught, the way it is being taught or both  do you think?  Apart from one child, who has been expelled, I have only seen a positive response.  Perhaps I have missed something.  I don't agree with caning or the slipper, but these teachers are acheiving the discipline without it.  Some of these children are predicted to acheive the highest grades in their GCSE's but they can't spell words like bachelor.  Do you think that when we use the word discipline nowadays that people automatically assume this means physical punishment?  Discipline can be acheived without it.  I think children crave this kind of guidance.  It makes them feel secure.  They learn where the boundaries are and can be more confident because of it.  Surely if they are not given boundaries when they are young,  they will grow up thinking that there are no restrictions in life and they can do and say what they want, when they want and behave the way they want with no risk of punishment.  Then they come up against the Law and they realise that there are consequences to unsocial behaviour.  By this time it's too late![:(]

[/quote]

 

Yes good points well made, I agree with that 100% [:)]

When the disruptive lad was put in solitary for 24 hours it had a good effect on the rest of the class and on him ... so far[;-)]

The caning/slipper issue is always a tricky one, in our school there were teachers who whacked people indiscriminately and they were hated by all, some used it as a last resort (we did have some mindless thugs as pupils at that school) and they were respected by the kids. yes Dick it was the teachers that had no control that sent children to the headmaster for the cane, the French teacher being a prime example unfortunately, she couldn't teach and she couldn't keep a class under control to save her life( yes she sent me for the cane ... for defending myself against  one of the aforesaid mindless thugs [8-)] so not only did I get thumped by the thug I got caned as well [:(] oh well c'est la vie ) I blame her for my lack of ability with French [;-)] [:D]

 

One of the better teachers inflicted pain without ever touching a child his punishments were things like holding a penny between your fingertips 2" above your head [:'(] or holding your arms out to the sides at shoulder level for the rest of the lesson [:'(] I noticed a similar one being used on That'll Teach 'em

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Gluestick wrote 

My sad conclusions are that the Polytech Universities were a reprise of various knee-jerk reactions to try and massage youth unemployment figures. "Degrees" in an eclectic range of pointless subjects, such as media studies, hairdressing health and hygiene et al, have both denegrated HFE, prostituted the university system and brainwashed parents who brag their brat is "Off to Uni!" Sad.

Forsooth, we even had a cleaner a few years ago, who boasted a Masters Degree in some mickey mouse health area. Amazing, since as a cleaner she was totally useless. I wouldn't say thick, but the expression two short planks comes to mind!

You sound rather elitist Gluestick.  In this day and age where employers are far more likely to give the job to someone with a degree why shouldn't  'ordinary' people be allowed to gain one in their chosen field ?  I much prefer to see people study to achieve any qualification than sit on their bums and let all that knowledge go to waste.  Maybe if you had actually had a conversation with your cleaner about her chosen subject she might not have been as 'thick' as you thought. [;-)]

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Gluestick wrote 

My sad conclusions are that the Polytech Universities were a reprise of various knee-jerk reactions to try and massage youth unemployment figures. "Degrees" in an eclectic range of pointless subjects, such as media studies, hairdressing health and hygiene et al, have both denegrated HFE, prostituted the university system and brainwashed parents who brag their brat is "Off to Uni!" Sad.

Forsooth, we even had a cleaner a few years ago, who boasted a Masters Degree in some mickey mouse health area. Amazing, since as a cleaner she was totally useless. I wouldn't say thick, but the expression two short planks comes to mind!

You sound rather elitist Gluestick.  In this day and age where employers are far more likely to give the job to someone with a degree why shouldn't  'ordinary' people be allowed to gain one in their chosen field ?  I much prefer to see people study to achieve any qualification than sit on their bums and let all that knowledge go to waste.  Maybe if you had actually had a conversation with your cleaner about her chosen subject she might not have been as 'thick' as you thought. [;-)]

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