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Privacy and surveillance


Deimos
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Whilst some might not think much of human rights groups (and I have never previously heard of this one), I did find their report interesting. Summarised in http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269. France does not do too badly - only 5 EU countries better. UK result predictable ?

Ian
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The graphic of the world is from the Daily Telegraph.   It could be yet another instance of "look how bad Britain is", so beloved of the UK press.   Or even just the edges of some scare campaign against the introduction of identity cards?

I know there are ongoing "issues" in Britain, but I wouldn't put it on the same scale as China and Russia!

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Depends if you "trust" the agencies who gather the data to take care with it. 

I understand that the DVLA sells lists of names and addresses of registered keepers of vehicles to groups such as wheel clampers etc.

 What would happen if hackers get into the identity card database? I don't think Government agencies have a very good record when it comes to IT.  Only recently a couple of teenagers hacked into the Pentagon web site and if that's not a secure area, then I don't hold out much hope for UK Government agencies.

In UK, we used to be so proud that unlike a large part of Europe, we didn't have to carry "papers" to prove who we are.  Nowadays the "excuse" of "fighting terrorism" or "dealing with benefit cheats" is being used to "persuade" us that we need identity cards etc.

I don't agree with the view that "I've done nothing wrong therefore it doesn't matter if "they" have my DNA; a biometric record/identity card; or track me via my mobile/car/goods; ...etc"

I feel that it is the thin edge of the wedge - no-one knows where it will all end.

For example, why should victims of crime, people who are witnesses to crime or who voluntarily give a DNA sample have that on official records forever?  Even children's DNA is kept by the police.

 

 

 

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I tend to agree. The "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" argument is ok as far as it goes but I subscribe to the view that the best way to prevent those in authority abusing their powers is to only give them the powers they absolutely must have.

I wonder how many of us 10 years ago would have thought that the DVLA would

be giving out our details to wheel clampers or that the government would be tracking vehicle journeys?

Neither the universal DNA register, nor the ID card come into the "absolutely necessary" category and both have potential for abuse.

How long before DNA records are passed on to insurers or employers for example?
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We were burgled a few years back in the UK. The perpetrator was caught because he left a small piece of skin and I do mean tiny, on a window he broke in his attempts' to gain entry.

Yipee he'd done it before and his DNA matched. As victims we were ecstatic. Bring on the database!!!!!!

Benjamin

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I would tend to agree that the map is rather weighted towards the anti-Blair arguments. There are some strange looking inconsistencies - Greece for instance looks like a very safe place to be, something which I suspect might be more down to primitive technology rather than respect for the individual. As we know, you can present statistics in such a way that they will prove whatever you like.
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[quote user="Alane"]How long before DNA records are passed on to insurers or employers for example?[/quote]

Quite. Insurers would be very happy to pay good money for genetic

profiles of their clients - pick out those most predisposed to cancer

or heart disease or any other conditions that have a genetic basis and

charge those clients more. Once we allow our privicy to go down the

toilet on the back of done nothing wrong = nothing to fear it will

happen. Why shouldn't it? And, come to think of it, what is so wrong

with the "pure" stock not having to pay to subsidise the

"faulty?"  Except that it might be a bit of a moral conundrum I

suppose.

If anyone doubts that this information will be sold, just look at the

amount of once private information that is already in the public

domain. Vehicle keeper data, electoral rolls (these can be bought and

sold electronically - no looking stuff up at the town hall), telephone numbers (even so-called ex-directory: we were

ex-directory for years and still got cold called by people who knew who

we were) and, of course, credit ratings.

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In the UK the police do not actually do their own DNA analysis. When they take a DNA sample it gets sent to a private company to be analysed and the results returned to the police. Except a month or so ago it was revealed that (some) of the private companies were also keeping the results for themselves.

The new NHS IT system (patient records database) has been sharing (or selling) information about patient records to a private company that then distributes them on to academics.

Just the other day I saw it quoted that in the UK CCTV system there is now one camera per 14 people. Hook a face recognition system to the CCTV camera network and you are tracking almost everybody most of the time (given that most people in the UK are caught on CCTV around 300 times per day. Of course for that you need a database of people's photos - but then we have the ID card scheme coming along to provide that.

Times recently reported: "An automatic number plate recognition system that is used by police in Hertfordshire gives access to up to 40 nationally or locally held databases when tracking a vehicle, the report said."

Certainly the information presented with regards to the UK in relation to other western countries seems to agree with the recent report from the UK Information Commissioner.

And why ? All to reduce the risks of terrorism ? Other countries seem to manage without all this (even the US seems to manage). I tend to think it time UK politicians started regarding themselves as servants of the people and not the other way round.

Ian
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Ian wrote:

The new NHS IT system (patient records database) has been sharing (or

selling) information about patient records to a private company that

then distributes them on to academics.

Any sources on that, because unless the data was anonymised it would be a very serious breach of the Data Protection Act. If it is anonymised then you are being somewhat disingenuous.

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Thibault wrote "I understand that the DVLA sells lists of names and addresses of registered keepers of vehicles to groups such as wheel clampers etc".

These details are freely available to anyone who has "good reason" for acquisition, at a price of course.

With regard to hackers getting into government databases - governments aren't too bad at hacking either! Don't believe for one minute that your email travels from A to B without interception!

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>>In the UK the police do not actually do their own DNA analysis. When they take a DNA sample it gets sent to a private company to be analysed and the results returned to the police. <<<

AFAIK while that may be true, it is also the case that this sort of analysis is sent to less busy police forces / areas its not always private companies that oblige

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In the U.S., many people are afraid to get DNA tested to find out if they have a pre-disposition to a genetic illness, because the information may (probably will) go to the health insurance database and it will be almost impossible for them to get health insurance.  There's also some question as to whether potential employers will be able to find out the results, and they will also have trouble getting a job.

PG

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Dick (cannot quote your question, but re: NHS data being passed to private companies):

It was an article in the Times, Guardian or BBC a week or so ago. It was about somebody who worked for the NHS being concerned about what was being stored of their new central database, so she checked and found that it was claiming she was an alcoholic and had been treated for alcoholism. She then had a massive struggle to have her details removed from the database. In the course of her arguments, she discovered that her details had been passed to a private company who had then distributed them further to academics. The article did not go into details on if or how anonymous the information was. Cannot find the article now as it's auto-deleted from my RSS feeds folders, but I found it yesterday so it was probably published last Wed or Thurs).

Russethouse. The thing I saw re the DNA databases being built up independently by private companies was on Channel 4 news a month or so ago. Basically the private companies were doing the contract work for the police and then also keeping and using the results themselves.

With regards to the Police keeping the DNA of everybody, if the government wants a DNA database for the entire population than it should pass the laws and make regulations accordingly. At the moment it is building such a database through the flawed justification that it is part of criminal investigations. Once you are shown to be nothing whatsoever to do with whatever it was your DNA was taken for then the DNA and everything is kept anyway. This is building a database for the population without the relevant public debate about the desirability for such a thing.

With so many government services now being operated by private contractors, access to these databases has to be very open to private contractors. When access to a central health database is given to a private medical company because they need to treat you, how confidant can be be that the insurance part of the same company will also not be using the data. Similarly, when treated by the private company, are details of you treatment, etc. only kept by the NHS or to that private company also keep info on you as well - on their own databases not under control of government. Many larger companies operate on the principle of obtaining maximum profit - so if your details ...

I have actually instructed the NHS that my medical records are not to be uploaded to their new Central Patient Records database (and thus they cannot be passed on elsewhere). I does mean that I cannot be treated on the NHS (other than using my French European Health Card) - but then being a French resident I cannot be treated under the NHS anyway. In any such system there will always be errors. Part of this scheme was a mechanism that would allow people to check their records and have them corrected if there were errors. Unfortunately, the government has now gone vague about that "aspect" of the system, with no delivery dates, no confirmation that it is even still to be available, etc.

Ian
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Many thanks for the link. It was the article I was thinking about and, having looked through it again I guess the information passed on could not have been anonymous as the researchers telephoned her - so must have had her details.

(Sorry, I cannot make it clickable either -IE7 problem).

Ian
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[quote user="daryl-et-elaine"]Thibault wrote "I understand that the DVLA sells lists of names and addresses of registered keepers of vehicles to groups such as wheel clampers etc".

These details are freely available to anyone who has "good reason" for acquisition, at a price of course.

With regard to hackers getting into government databases - governments aren't too bad at hacking either! Don't believe for one minute that your email travels from A to B without interception![/quote]

Also every website you visit is logged by UK Gov and USA that's as well as your emails.

20 years ago I discovered about computerised voice/word recognition on telephone systems. At the time they could handle 2000 incoming and 2000 outgoing lines separately and could be triggered to record when they noticed certain words or phrases.

I found it very worring that they recorded each end of the line separately as it could be so easily be manipulated.

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We live in an area in the UK that is considered a good area with low crime. However, things have changed considerably over the last few years, with increasing crime and muggings. A man was shot in the stomach for his watch is just one example. We are thinking of writing with a few of our other neighbours to the council to plead for CCTV on our street.

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Salty - yes you are spied on every day (or to be less hysterical, your calls are auto-monitored for key words which would then trigger recording and an alarm) but not by your own country. That would be illegal. So the USA does ours and we do theirs.

I was in London when the last lot of bombs went off. I would give up some of my freedom (such as it is) not to hear 360 degree sirens again and see the convoys of ambulances moving through the streets.

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I wonder how much of the "loss of freedom" actually related to mistrust of government. For example, if CCTV were used only to catch people committing crimes then I doubt many would have a problem with it. However, link the CCTV to face recognition systems and the national ID card database and you are then tracking movements of most of the population. Being filmed on CCTV does not represent loss of freedom to me. However, having the government use such systems to track my whereabouts much of the time does. I wonder if greater trust in what governments were doing would cause people to see such surveillance as less of a "loss of freedom".


Ian

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