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Race Relations en France


Chief
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[quote user="hastobe"]I don't see anything unreasonable with only taking into account the ability to do the job - do you? 

I don't understand why the case of Poles shouldn't be included in the discussion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4631802.stm) - unless you're trying to say that if they are white they are not an ethnic minority?

Kathie

[/quote]

Now I think you are making yourself look ridiculous. You are putting words into my mouth to strengthen a very thin argument.

Where do you work that this advert on the intranet appeared?

And what do you think is so bad about being fair?

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I don't consider that anything I have said is ridiculous - but there is no point pursuing a discussion when people have entrenched positions. 

(It's normally a good indicator that you're getting frustrated, Dick, when you say people have put words into your mouth [;-)] )

Kathie

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Well, Katie, if you can't argue your point of view, go ad hominem. The rest of your post doesn't make a huge amount of sense. especially when you have been trying to put words into my mouth!

How about answering the question I asked you - what is wrong, or disturbing, about fair employment practices?

More open-minded posters might be interested in a very thoughtful article on the abolition of slavery in the Observer today:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1957354,00.html

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[quote user="hastobe"]
Exactly what I said - and no you wouldn't see the advert - because it was on our work intranet - and removed after a number of compliants.

[/quote]

hastobe, I was referring to adverts generally. Looking back I see you have made reference to an ad in your workplace:

"In my own work place I have seen adverts stating 'preference will be given to ethnic minorities"

I accept my understanding is limited, but does that not mean that of all the candidates  who answer the job spec with equal skills/qualifications etc, that the person who is under-represented will possibly get the job?

I suspect you have not quoted the whole ad. Would it not say something like 'ethnic minority peoples are currently under represented in (bla bla) so...'

My understanding is that this means the employer is aware that institutional racism affects who gets called to interview (see my example before) and is trying to attract and encourage the people that have previously been summarily dismissed, at an early stage of the recruitment process, to make good that mistake?

Chief, this part of the discsussion is particularly relevant to you and you family, as in France photographs are still routinely attatched to what we call C.Vs so your son , if not you, will be affected by that. Also, CVs with non 'French' names are, apparently, routinely thrown into the bin.

 

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[quote user="Bugbear"]

The way this thread has turned out is SOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo predictable,

I'm done with it.[/quote]

That's odd. As others have pointed out, it's been a very respectfully conducted debate. Why are you 'done' with it? What is SOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooopredictable?

Whatever I thought it might have been, (based on past experiences) it hasn't happened here.

Edit: Post crossed with Dicks'

 

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]This is all anecdotal - do you have any evidence? Having recently been in the civil service for 5 years I saw nothing of the kind.
[/quote]

It may be something that I have recalled from my time spent in employment in UK, but I'm not in the habit of making things up. [:D]

If you mean do I have the relevant job description and criteria with this written down on , that I can post on here then no I don't. But it does not make it any less true.

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I can believe it. You'd be surprised how ignorant the personnel (sorry, HR) people at even very large companies can be. One very large magazine publisher, based at London's south bank, a subsidiary of which I once worked for, is a case in point. They would only find out what the law was when they got objections or a tribunal was pending. Poorly worded or illegal advertisements, particularly on notice boards (no intranet then - what, communicate with the employees? Stupid idea...) were the norm.

Edit - now I suppose I have upset HR people - not all are the same of course.

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[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="Altan"]

And remember many of us ethnic minorities are in the UK because you were in our countries.

[/quote]

I guess that gives us Brits a very good reason for taking over Normandy (and perhaps Italy, Norway, Iceland...) - but somehow I don't think the French etc will agree with that logic...

Kathie

[/quote]

Let me explain the logic. Britian colonised countries in the Caribean, Africa, Asia. These peoples were part of the British Empire. There populations were encouraged to come to the UK to work in institutions like the NHS. Resources from these countries supported the wealth of the UK. Many people from India, Pakistan the Carib fought for Britain during the two world wars.

 

Ethnic minorites have made huge contrubutions to Britain. In Sports, Food, ( I remember what English food was like in the 60-70s boiled and two veg) Music, fashion.etc

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Well, we seem to have come full circle now. France, far more so than Britain, strongly resists foreign interference - though I'd rather think of it as evolution - with its traditions like language, food etc, and although it is happy for sporting success there are plenty of comments on the colour of some of its sportsmen (see above).

And of course, many Poles also fought in the British forces in WW2, and we never colonised them (they had a rather different incentive).

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[quote user="Will "]

Well, we seem to have come full circle now. France, far more so than Britain, strongly resists foreign interference - [/quote]

It says it does, Will, but the resistance isn't as strong as some like to make out.   American films get much bigger audiences than French films.    People eat shedloads of couscous and tagines.    Technology, although often overpriced, is embraced as eagerly as it is in Britain - computers, mobile phones, Playstations, the lot.   Non-French 4x4s are increasingly popular.    Many children eat cereal for breakfast.  And of course, trusty old McDo and kebab shops on every corner.

The difference, I think, is that while eagerly embracing globalisation France also retains its own culture, whereas Britain rejects its own culture as worthless.   That's where the difference in conditioning is.

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I saw an interesting news report on TF1 or FR3 (can't remember which) a few months back.

In order to try to make hiring practices more fair, one of the big companies, possibly Hewlett Packard, had a department where all CVs came in.  They were stripped of information that could allow department heads to guess gender, age, ethnic origin, etc., and then sent on to the appropriate department.  The idea is to make qualifications the only important element for a first interview.  Afterwards, of course, you can't strip out things like personality fit and personal prejudice.  But, everyone gets equal treatment to at least get in the door.

PG

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As a Progressive, originally from the American Northeast, I'm very disturbed when I see Confederate flags being sold on market stalls here.  I wonder if the people selling them realize the message that the Confederate symbol sends to anyone who knows American history?  They wouldn't be allowed to openly sell a Nazi flag, for example...

PG

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SB, I do so agree with your point about Britain rejecting its culture, but I would in this instance say England rather than Britian. It's OK to be proud about being French, or Irish, Scottish or Welsh, but stand up for England and you are immediately pigeonholed as a BNP supporter or a morris dancer.

I was thinking of 'official' resistance to other cultures rather than in popular terms. I agree - and although we don't yet have too many couscous and kebab eateries, and thankfully few McDons, there is a takeaway pizza on every corner - and a fish and chip van - which I suppose amounts to much the same thing.

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What seems to have been erased from history is the many Indians and Africans who fought against Britain in WWII.

Many Indian Sizan (spelled backwards as correctly spelled nanny doesn't like the word) were still held in camps by the time of partition in India.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

My father was accused of racism and hit the newspapers because out of two equally well educated and qualified candidates for a job he chose the one that spoke good English.
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Quote from PossumGirl

"As a Progressive, originally from the American Northeast, I'm very disturbed when I see Confederate flags being sold on market stalls here.  I wonder if the people selling them realize the message that the Confederate symbol sends to anyone who knows American history?  They wouldn't be allowed to openly sell a Nazi flag, for example...

PG"

 

Imagine how I feel PG.  I was born and raised in North Carolina.  I have avoided posting on this thread up until now as I have so many personal feelings about the subject.  When we vacationed in France, I never had the opportunity to see any racism.  Believe me I saw enough growing up in the U.S. South.  It sickened me and still does.  However, after having lived in France for five years now, I have seen lots of it.  Like others here have said, I often think it is due to the fact that the French don't feel hushed by any one or thing.  They say it like they feel it.  If you or I don't like it, I guess they just don't care.  Makes it rather easy to get to know where people stand.

As to racism in primary schools here.  Well it certainly exists where I live, but I have to say that it is no where near the level I saw in the U.S.A.  Daughter would come home from primary school in France with many a story about students of an ethnic origin (be it black or arab) getting taunted and picked on.  These are young children and I can only assume they have "learned" this type of hatred from home.  Now that daughter is in college, the stories are more frequent and hateful.  I also find it interesting how the college reacts to student reports of racism.

I am married to someone of a non-EU, non-American ethnicity, so I guess that makes our daughter of mixed heritage (I like that term).  Something she needed to be reminded of just recently. 

Racism is hatred.  It feeds on itself.  Yes, it can be found everywhere.  In all the countries I have lived in, it is there.  All I can do is try to teach my own child how ugly it is and how ugly it looks on the person(s) practicing it.


 

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[quote user="Lori"]

Racism is hatred.  It feeds on itself.  Yes, it can be found everywhere.  In all the countries I have lived in, it is there.  All I can do is try to teach my own child how ugly it is and how ugly it looks on the person(s) practicing it.

 

[/quote]

Brava, Lori.  That is the point in a nutshell. If only there were more people doing as you, the problem would disappear of its own accord.

PG

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re Dog's point about the number of Indians and Africans who fought against Britain in the second WW. I didn't know this. But  on the other hand remember the West Indians who joined up to help protect the mother country. Then after the war decided to immigrate to the UK and didn't get much of a welcome. Andrea Levy's book, Small Island, covers this period of time sensitively. Also compares racism towards black people in those days between Americans and British in one section of the book. Pat.

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[quote user="Patf"]But  on the other hand remember the West Indians who joined up to help protect the mother country. Then after the war decided to immigrate to the UK and didn't get much of a welcome. [/quote]

Patf, if you're interested in the colonial relationships between countries, you should watch "Indigènes".   It's about Algerians who fought for France in WW2, and who were afterwards not recompensed in line with white French soldiers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5386356.stm

http://www.festival-cannes.fr/films/fiche_film.php?langue=6002&id_film=4352781

 

 

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Has anyone ever seen GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT from 1947, directed by Elia Kazan?  Granted, it's 60 years old (that's scary to think about!), but I think the point it makes about anti-Semitism in America is very valid for the discussion we're having in today's world.  When Mr. Possum watched this for the first time, and also an excellent television series called I'LL FLY AWAY about the 1950s that deals with racism in the American South, he was actually quite shocked.  Coming from France he knew that there was racism in the States, but had never realized how institutionalized it was.

I find it sad that all these years later we are still dealing with the same issues around the world and in some ways, I feel, going backwards from progress that we had made.

PG

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