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Race Relations en France


Chief
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Hi.

Just wanted to pick peoples brains on this one.  I am always surprised when i get told or read that France is supposed to be a very racist society.  I personally, either as a black man or englishman, have never overtly come across it despite my many travels in France, and yet, i am constantly told that moving there is a wrong move for me.  I just wondered what as expats, peoples thoughts on it were, either from a an british, or black persons (if you are black) point of view.  I am sure it is there, and wouldn't be naive enough to believe it wasn't, but to be honest, you would expect to pick up undertones if nothing else if it was a prevalent feature of French society, and i just don't seem to be getting that.

cheers

Chief

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Chief - my husband is Indian and we certainly get less racism here than in UK directed at us PERSONALLY.  However, I find that racism towards Arab people horrific, worse than UK,  and I do mind it.  So I guess it depends on where you come from.  Many people who are French are black - from the DOM TOMS etc and I think they are seen as more 'acceptable'.  Here, interestingly, Indians are seen as cultured and so we personally have not experienced many problems.  This year we had some English guests who were making (to me) totally unacceptable remarks about Indians and Pakistanis.  I asked them to stop and reminded them they were potentially talking about my family.  They looked horrified and mumbled apologies and said 'but we didn't mean him - he's not really Indian, I mean he lives in France'.

The only problems we have had are with fonctionaires.  Mike's Carte de Séjour was refused to start with - even though he is an English citizen with an English passport - under the pretext that they couldn't read his marriage certificate.  When I asked them if they could read mine the answer was 'yes'.  Pointed out that it was the same certificate - red faces all round.  Little incidents like that happen quite often and we just live with it.  We are also stopped more times than average by the gendarmes and customs - but hey life is really tooshort to get worked up about it.

Realistically I think you might find it hard to get work in a rural area - but then don't we all.  However, I do not think you would find overwhelming problems in everyday life.  If you tend not to take too much notice of the racism in Uk then you probably won't find it different here.

Maggi

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I do think that the French are xenophobic generally and some are even fascist! I was shocked when our local village shopkeeper in Basse Normandie told me that Flers isn't a nice place because it is full of blacks!  My husband now refers to her as "the old fascist" - I suppose what surprised us even more was that she didn't try to veil her comments in any way as one is coming to expect in the UK these days.  I don't suppose she would have said it to me if I were black!  Of course it probably depends a lot on whether one is in a rural environment or in a city - I should imagine the more metropolitan areas are generally less racist and tolerant (as in the UK I find) - fear is at the root of it and if you are used to meeting all types of people and races on a day to day basis you become less fearful.

I live in a rural community in the UK and was equally shocked to hear my postman neighbour's opinions on other races and colours - he just hasn't really met any.  On a recent trip to Egypt with him and his family he was quite open about how he thought they were all such a nice lot and that he had misjudged them (equally pretty judgemental).

I think most people are culturist though - including me!  I would be instantly worried walking along a dark street seeing a group of hooded black boys with flash trainers (white boys too!) but if I came across a suited, booted, briefcase carrying black man on the same corner I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

I am glad I have had the opportunity to meet a wide range of people from different races, religions and cultures in my life - it has been very interesting.  The colour is the least important thing though - what counts is the culture and how close it is to ours - cultural problems really cause the greatest problem - as one can see in the UK at the moment with the fear about muslims.

Valerie

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IMHO......

1.  There is probably not MORE racism in France than anywhere else, but it is certainly interwoven into society in a different way from what it is in, for example, the UK.

2.  I find that it is (mostly) not "personal" racism, but an expression of discontent against immigration en masse.    This means that a person can have friends of North African origin but still express anti-Arabe sentiments.   Officially, it's not allowed, but on the streets ordinary people aren't always as circumspect as Brits about some issues.

3.  There is a certain level of institutionalised racism (or at least lack of integration).  For example, there are 577 deputies.   Look at the list http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/tribun/comm3.asp and spot the non-whites!  I'll give you a clue - here in Metropolitan France, the answer is tending towards zero.   And of course, Le Pen is still reasonably popular, certainly more so than the BNP in the UK.

In short, yes of course there is racism, but I'm pretty certain you won't find it directed against YOU, unless you're very unlucky.    It's an individualistic nation, people don't REALLY care what you do - as long as you're seen to be integrating.   Even Le Pen says that!  [:)] 

 

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I don't think the French are any more racist than the British; possibly in some ways they are less so. There is a sense of national pride and wanting to preserve 'frenchness' which in Britain would be interpreted as jingoism or even fascism. The big difference is that the French say things that would not be tolerated in Britain. I've never come across any who have any genuinely anti feelings towards black (African or West Indian) or Asian people. Curiosity, and a fear of different cultures, perhaps, but not racism. However, the Arab nations are a different matter altogether. These are the people that the French refer to as 'blacks' with all the negative connotations of the word, and they are definitely hated by many and are the targets of the right wing politicians' invective (and not only the right, there is a current controversy surrounding a socialist politician who has made 'racist' comments in the past and has recently commented on the colours of the national football side).

There are pockets of dislike for certain nationalities - in areas where memories of WWII are still strong, Germans are mistrusted (though liked elsewhere) and there are also pockets of anti-American feeling, seemingly in retaliation for the anti-French comments made supporters of Bush and the Iraq war.

What the French in general do seem opposed to are enclaves of other nationalities, who maintain their own cultures and do not embrace French life. The 'blacks in Flers' referred to by Pixietoadstool are a case in point; these are whole sections of HLM housing occupied by Arabs - there seems to be similar enclaves in most large towns. And the British in central Brittany have experienced similar opposition.

 

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I agree that people of Arabic origin seem to be the least favoured, and most discriminated against, group in France. Whenever I hear French people banging on about the number of illegal immigrants living here, sponging off the system, etc, I always ask them what they would do if they lived a hand-to-mouth existence in country that they were desperate to leave.  Isn't it natural that people would choose to come here illegally if they had the chance, as the French system makes it a relatively easy for them to remain here, even without papers.  If there is a problem, it is with the system itself.

A lot of French people seem to judge people by their race (Arab, Anglo-Saxon etc) rather than their country of origin.

We have one black guy in our village, and although he is well liked, and not actively dicriminated against, I find that some of the jokes and comments made to his face are decidedly less PC than I feel comfortable with.  A lot of Brits say that living in rural France is like living in the UK 30 years ago, and certainly the attitude here is not unlike that in the UK in the 1970's when TV comedy shows often used "darkies" and "nig-nogs" (their words, not mine, I hasten to add) as a focus for racial stereotype jokes.

As an example, the word "Nègre" is still in fairly common use here, and quite a song and dance was made during the summer about having a black TV news presenter.  I do think though that much of this is due to a general lack of political-correctness, rather than an actual dislike.

 

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Thanks for the replies so far.  very enlightening indeed. I guess me, my white wife and half-caste arabic looking son are going to go down great guns in some regions of rural France.......hee hee.  The joys of life.  Thanks again though, it is helpful to know, and will aide understanding when we eventually arrive.  My primary concern, is to have informed intellgent debate with my son, so he is aware of the issues and can manage the differences sanely without taking things personally.  I will focus a little more upon his progress with the language, so he is able to more readily express himself, and hopefully feel more at ease with his transition into French life when it happens.

chief

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It may not strictly be to do with racism, but at this time during the last run up to the presidential election, 8% of the electorate said they would be voting for the FN, this time around it is 17%. However, the French rarely do what they say they will (that was from a French friend of mine). I think that there is racism, particularly in the big cities, but in the rural areas people tend to take as they find. My agriculteur friend/neighbour has some very good black friends in Paris, who he always refers to as les noirs, similarly I'm sure I get called l'anglaise rather than my name quite often, but it is not meant in a derogative sense, just an easy way of identifying people, albeit rather un pc.

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[quote user="Cerise"]

The only problems we have had are with fonctionaires.  Mike's Carte de Séjour was refused to start with - even though he is an English citizen with an English passport - under the pretext that they couldn't read his marriage certificate.  When I asked them if they could read mine the answer was 'yes'.  Pointed out that it was the same certificate - red faces all round. 

Maggi

[/quote]

I bet your face was not red - perhaps you were annoyed but there must have been satisfaction at 'having caught them out'

Paul 

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Surprised that you looking at the National Assembly for hints of racism in France, SB when much closer to home you have George Freche, heard of him?  He is the mayor of Montpellier.  He said to a meeting last week that there are too many blacks in the French football team, this was hastily explained as him having meant there are not enough whites[:D]  and then that the French football team did not represent the makeup of the French nation, (no English born players then?),  so then all the other mayors round your way could chip in and support him and say he wasn't really a racist,[:'(] I hear he and his aids have not yet stopped spinning!! 

This is all  despite the fact that last year he called the arabs who fought for France and the allies in the WW 2 and the algerians who supported France in the independance war les harkis, as sub-humans.  Yes racism is alive and well in France, try talking to the non-whites in the city suburbs across France as we did in the summer, the difference here is that the French news channels don't make such a big issue of it as the BBC does.  

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My daughter of whom I am very proud is of mixed race. Nothing here has changed much between her first and last visit. People who normally say “bonjour” and stop for a chat when I walk my dog every day never say a word when she walks with me, they turn there head and pretend we are not there. The first time she came over the look was a mixture of shock and disbelief and mutterings in the corner. She and I are however above ‘them’ and behave in the same way as we always do namely polite and courteous, its something we have learnt to do over the years. (ed) By that I mean we don't drop to their level and we don't 'bite' back we just stay cool.

We have a chap who is Danish and is married to a really nice woman and they run a local B&B. He however originally went to Denmark from Morocco, became a Danish citizen, was a school teacher there for many years and has now retired here. He has had the normal thing of kids throwing eggs at his house but it finally escalated this year to a flower pot, quite a large one (more of a shrub type), thrown through his dinning room window. Not nice if there are guests having dinner. I asked if he had contacted the police, he said that he didn’t want any trouble which is what they (the police) said would happen. I found that quite funny as a Scot in Quillan reported racial comments made to him to the police there and they prosecuted the person concerned. This indicated to me, probably wrongly (I hope), that the racism here is more to do with colour than where you come from as is the way in which it is dealt with. Well thats my personal experience anyway.

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The problems I have had in life have stemmed less from my colouring

(somewhere between generic Southern European and North African) and

more from my surname, which is Middle Eastern. I've been turned over

unpleasently by the authorities in Israel (not that I wasn't expecting it), the US

(ditto), Russia (when the Chechen war was at its height), the

Netherlands (tolerant my a**e) and the UK a couple of times, which was

more disappointing than anything else.

I've never had even a single question about my ethnic background in

France, nor have I ever been asked more than the most prefunctory

questions entering or leaving the country. This is probably more to do

with not being different enough in appearance (aside from my being

devilishly good looking) to stand out from the background (plenty of

dark Frenchmen of European origin after all) than any lack of racism,

though.

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Surprised that you looking at the National Assembly for hints of racism in France, SB when much closer to home you have George Freche, heard of him?  He is the mayor of Montpellier.  [/quote]

No, Ron, he is NOT the mayor of Montpellier!   The mayor of Montpellier is a lady called Hélène Mandroux.  http://www.montpellier.fr/152-expression-du-maire-ditorial.htm

[quote user="Ron Avery"] He said to a meeting last week that there are too many blacks in the French football team, [/quote]

"Dans cette équipe, il y a neuf blacks sur onze", a-t-il dit mardi, selon les propos rapportés par le journal. "La normalité serait qu'il y en ait trois ou quatre. Ce serait le reflet de la société. Mais, là, s'il y en a autant, c'est parce que les blancs sont nuls. J'ai honte pour ce pays. Bientôt, il y aura onze blacks. Quand je vois certaines équipes de foot, ça me fait de la peine."

He managed to upset EVERYONE, including whites, by saying they're rubbish at football.     But you know, he has aired an important sociological point.   Why ARE there so many non-white players in the national team?    I wonder what their backgrounds are?    Almost certainly not ENArque, that's for sure.   So if people would face the real issues and stop farting around whingeing about Frêche, who is really just a buffoon, the problems might have a chance of being resolved.

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

This is all  despite the fact that last year he called the arabs who fought for France and the allies in the WW 2 and the algerians who supported France in the independance war les harkis, as sub-humans.[/quote]

Ron, are you allright?   This tabloid rant doesn't sound like you at all!  [8-)]   He did say to one harki that he was a sous-homme, which is unforgivable, but I think you'll find that there was a HUGE public backlash against him for it.   Nobody found it funny or intelligent or correct.   Presenting the general French public as being on the same wavelength as Georges Frêche is doing them a great disservice.   He did well for Montpellier in his years as maire, but personally he's not a well-loved man. 

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Yes racism is alive and well in France, try talking to the non-whites in the city suburbs across France as we did in the summer, the difference here is that the French news channels don't make such a big issue of it as the BBC does.  

[/quote]

I think it's quite well publicised.  I don't know anyone who's not aware of the banlieue problems, or who's not aware of the racial mix in the banlieues.  I don't think people are under any illusions about how fair and gentle the police are either.  All three of the major runners in next year's elections (Ségo, Sarko, and Le Pen) are hot on Law and Order.   People know!   

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My limited impression is that things are much more open in France. There seems less of a requirement to be "Politically Correct". Similarly, when something is said (or shouted) I have found the recipient tends to take it in the spirit it was intended. for example, I was at a dog training thing once (run in a different department), the visiting SCC trainer was coloured (Negro). At one point a particular dog would not come near the guy and somebody shouted out loud (for everybody to hear) "Does not like Blacks". My UK character immediately thought violence to follow, court cases, tribunals, etc. but it was all taken as an innocent joke by everybody (trainer as well who then continued the joke). It was the sort of comment that under the same situation in the UK somebody might has said quietly to the person next to them hoping they would not be too offended, but in France no insult intended so none taken.

I have come across what appeared as deeper dislike or nationalities, mainly when people have been discussing the negative aspects to EU enlargement. However, it has always been general and never directed at individuals.

Ian

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Sorry my mistake, Frêche is now the president of the whole region!!  I thought if you were looking for examples of racism in France,  Frêche is a classic and more specific example than the Assembly in Paris but is it representative?  Is it not like working for La Poste don't you have to have been born in France to be a deputy?  That would make a lot of the deputies white wouldn't it?

 I really do agree with all you say about him,  he is a buffoon and sadly a buffoon who has done a lot for the city and region but is he not a dangerous as people look up to him?  Do you think others may feel as he does, after all he is a socialist, he is not on the right wing with Le Penn. Can you imagine any Minister, MP or Mayor in the UK still being in office if they had said anything like that?  What I wrote about the Harkis was not a tabloid rant, I feel very strongly about the way the "friends" of France were betrayed since I went to Rivesalte in the summer.  Go to Campe Joffre at Rivesalte  before they knock it down and tell me what you see there does not sadden you, it did me, many of the people who I took there were in tears.  I was unaware of all this before I went there I could not understand the fuss about Frêche, I did not know what a Harki was before then,  but after seeing that camp and the conditions they must have had to live in, I was proud to have been a part of the demonstration in Montpellier demanding the resignation of George Frêche. That version of Frêche's latest gaffe that you posted is not the same as printed elsewhere,   the underlined bit was added in some local papers, another version said that he meant there were not enough white players, not that they were no good and then the last one version I think in the Parisian papers said he was only saying that the team did not not reflect the generic make up of France.  Buffoon or not, a lot of people went to a lot of trouble to apparently change or explain his words.  You will have to enlighten me as to what an  ENArque is, its not a term I am familiar with.

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An ENArque is someone who has been through the Ecole National d'Administration.  Chirac, Ségolène, all the usual suspects.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d'administration

Yes, the deputies are probably part of that scene, I don't know, but all the more reason to change their ideas!   With over 36 000 maires in France, I'm not sure how to find out how many aren't white, but I would hope that there are some non-whites.   Maybe someone else knows?   I did find a blog that claimed they were all white, but who knows with blogs....

Do people agree with Frêche?   Well, as has been observed often on here, the comment "there are a lot of blacks in the football team" could almost be considered as common currency.  You do hear it a lot, but you do have to work out what the intention is when someone says it.   Sometimes it is just an observation, sometimes it has "not worth supporting" tagged on afterwards.

I never really got to the bottom of the Frêche harki affair.  He claimed it was a comment between him and that one man, and I lost track after that.   People are going to a lot of effort about him because he's "important".   He supports Ségolène, for example, and she wouldn't want to be associated with that sort of thing, so a great palaver ensues as spin doctors and others try to sort it all out.

I agree the Algerians were treated atrociously.   Have you seen the film Indigènes yet, on the same theme?

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Timely thread, this one. The whole story is here:

Un supporter du PSG tué après une agression raciste

But, to summerise, a plain clothes police officer defending a French - Jewish

football fan from being kicked to death by a group (25 odd to one -

brave lads, eh?) of skinheaded PSG fans shouting racist abuse after PSG

went down 2-4 to Tel Aviv shot two of the assailants, killing one and

badly wounding another. To add a little seasoning to the broth the

police officer was black. I wonder if J-M Le Pen will feel the need to

pronounce on this one? He's always been keen on taking a firm line on

law and order. Appearantly the crowd were calling for Le Pen Président.

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In the village where I live, there is a small clothes-making company employing about 15 to 20 people, mainly women. When they have work, it's generaly sub-sub-sub -contracted.

The last two summers have seen half the workforce stay at home a lot, paid a basic "stand-by" wage, hoping for a contract to materialise after the annual August break... Last month, the owner announced he would be retiring in the spring of 2007 and had had an offer for the purchase of the factory as an on-going business. The potential new owner has contacts in the trade and has contracts in the pipeline.

He came to see the factory at work (everyone was back from their enforced break for his visit).

What's his name, I asked. What he was like? Is he from the area? Do they know him? What impression did he make?

The answer was:"C'est un gris"         Translation: "He's mixed race"

and that's all they noticed about him, this man who's offering them a job, a future, some form of financial security...!
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[quote user="Clair"]In the village where I live, there is a small clothes-making company employing about 15 to 20 people, mainly women. When they have work, it's generaly sub-sub-sub -contracted.

The last two summers have seen the half the workforce stay at home a lot, paid a basic "stand-by" wage, hoping for a contract to materialise after the annual August break... Last month, the owner announced he would be retiring in the spring of 2007 and had had an offer for the purchase of the factory as an on-going business. The potential new owner has contacts in the trade and has contracts in the pipeline.

He came to see the factory at work (everyone was back from their enforced break for his visit).

What's his name, I asked. What he was like? Is he from the area? Do they know him? What impression did he make?

The answer was:"C'est un gris"         Translation: "He's mixed race"

and that's all they noticed about him, this man who's offering them a job, a future, some form of financial security...![/quote]

quite amusing really. Bit like the white supremacists in the states, who as a general rule cannot spell the word black, and yet somehow feel the colour of their skin elevates them from what they are to something quite different.

Another one that really amuses me was alluded to above. It occurs when they say something derogatory about black people, realise your there and then say, no offence, ones like you are okay, its the other sort were talking about...heehee...as if to say, surely i can be your friend and a racist....er no...sorry
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It's not just racial and religious intolerance, homophobia and sexism are normal practice in our particular area. Many of the locals we know have very little knowledge of other countries, their customs or faiths outside their own few metres of territory. My wife used to work with HIV & Aids patients in the UK but that's something we keep very much to ourselves here. 

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[quote user="Chris Head"]It's not just racial and religious intolerance, homophobia and sexism are normal practice in our particular area. Many of the locals we know have very little knowledge of other countries, their customs or faiths outside their own few metres of territory. My wife used to work with HIV & Aids patients in the UK but that's something we keep very much to ourselves here. [/quote]

and just to confirm that, I had an amusing conversation with the little old lady I "look after": she had an appointment in Aurillac (30mn drive) for her eyes yesterday... First time she'd been there in 50 years, she told me... she's 82...!

Her son-in-law is currently away. "Where has he gone to?" I asked... "Oooh, je sais pas... là-bas, chez les nègres"

It turns out he's on a jolly to Senegal...

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My step daughter in law is mixed race and hates the term half caste . She will firmly point out the error of anyone who uses that term to describe her or her children. Yet , Chief who is Black uses that terminology to decribe his children. Is she being over sensitive and taking offence where none is meant? Likewise, could it be that the old lady Clair looks after is a product of her time and means no disrespect? Yet in this day and age, she could so easily offend someone.

Did you think she meant to offend , Clair? 

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[quote user="beryl"] My step daughter in law is mixed race and hates the term half caste . She will firmly point out the error of anyone who uses that term to describe her or her children. Yet , Chief who is Black uses that terminology to decribe his children. Is she being over sensitive and taking offence where none is meant? Likewise, could it be that the old lady Clair looks after is a product of her time and means no disrespect? Yet in this day and age, she could so easily offend someone. Did you think she meant to offend , Clair? [/quote]

Well she certainly knows she's being derogatory, as the comments are

usually made with a knowing smile, expecting me to add to the slant.

I think this way of talking is so normal that my reply along the lines of "you really should not use these words" make ME stand out!

I must be a n i g g e r-lover and her son once said to me, talking about "les arabes"

that as a

woman, if I were to be raped by one of them, surely I would want to

kill him. To which I replied that if I were to be raped, I didn't think

I

would be happier about it if the rapist happened to be French...

This old lady is the person who reported the "gris" comment

I mentioned earlier, originally made by one of her daughters, who works

at the factory in question. When I pretended to have misheard her, she

completely and deliberately pretended to go in "forgetful old lady"

mode to avoid having to repeat her comment and when pressed as to what "gris" meant, mumbled "I don't know, that just how people say it".

I told her a Spanish family had rented the gite for a week: "Be careful, they steal everything" and yes, she did close the barn

doors she usually keeps open during the day...!

Her children are around my age, ranging from late 30's to early

50's. Her grandson has just turned 18. He talks in the same vein. And

so the parents' prejudices are just passed down the line...

This is generalised to an extent you'd have to walk around with your eyes closed not to know it:

Yesterday's "Le Monde" about the new F1 pilot signed on by Mc Laren "Lewis Hamilton is the first F1 BLACK driver"

What about the hooha all over the papers when TF1 put a

BLACK news presenter on their 8 pm news?

This

is so engrained that although most people have more understanding of of

gay lifefstyles for instance, they do not seem to be able to have the

same understanding towards a NOTICEABLE VISIBLE

difference, i.e. skin colour or accent, because it's an obvious and

clearly defined difference they cannot ignore, whereas, to them, a

lifestyle is seen more as a choice, although I know there's no

difference.

For the record, I too hate the term half-caste (my mother is Malagasy, my father French and I tan easily!). I equate it to mis-cast and imperfect.
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