Jump to content

Wind Turbines


Jackie
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi we have learned recently that they propose to put a line of fourteen 850kW wind turbines near our village in Deux Sevres. Now whilst most would agree that we need to do something to save the planet for the next generations there has been much debate locally about the effects of this proposal.

 

If you have been or are in this situation did you consider the negatives and were they in excess of the many positives?

 

 Did you worry about the value of your property falling and was it justified?

 

Were you concerned about the migration of wild life and the effect of  100m high structures?

 

Were you worried about acoustic noise levels from the blades and possible interference with television radio signals by reflection and was it a justified concern?

 

Did you take part in an organized protest and what objections were raised that had any merit or effect on the planning?…….J & J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Not quite able to answer as you want, but part of my work is concerned with electricity generation, and we have also been involved with local protests about power lines. So I will try to answer your questions in an unbiased way.

Formerly wind turbines were expensive and inefficient, but they are improving all the time and are presently just about viable economically. As costs for other forms of power generation rise, they are likely to appear more attractive (from the financial viewpoint, not the aesthetic).

Unless you are able to find a green party official to buy your house, then the proximity of a wind farm will almost certainly adversely affect its value. By how much, that's a matter for guesswork. 

Despite the fears of the wildlife lobby, the evidence so far suggests that birds seem to be largely indifferent to the presence of wind turbines and manage to avoid flying into the rotating blades.

Wind turbines are noisy in operation, but the technology is improving all the time. There is little hard evidence of their affecting broadcast transmissions.

Our experience is that France loves taking part in protest marches and campaigns - to the extent that other issues creep in and the original campaign is in danger of getting swamped. For instance, our local campaign against a power transmission line was hi-jacked by anti nuclear campaigners (particularly those opposed to nuclear waste disposal, not something that had any relevance to the local area) and pro-renewable energy campaigns. Often vested interests, at maire level and above, can negate the effects of the protests.

As a matter of interest, the power failure a few days ago that started in Germany and knocked out most of France as well as other parts of Europe has produced calls at EU level for more transmission lines. That, from my professional view, is rubbish. What is needed is decentralised power, transmission losses alone can account for the loss of 30% of the power generated, which means 30% more carbon emissions etc than necessary. In that case, wind power made things worse - the demand in southern Germany for more power could not be met by the wind turbines in the north as the power needed could not pass through the one transmission line available. We need to look at power generation using available-on-demand renewable power (such as bio-fuelled power stations) supplemented by wind, solar and hydro power, and located where it is needed rather than miles away where nobody lives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll deal with the wildlife issue, it isn't totally straightforward and I will give you a couple of contacts in Deux-Sevres for you to check the situation for your village, or I will do it for you if you wish.

There will inevitably be deaths to birds from wind generators, but with certain safeguards in the positioning these should be minimal. By that, I mean that in comparison to deaths that already occur as a result of collisions with high tension lines, cars, trucks, aircraft and trains, accidental shooting etc. you could actually use the word insignificant. Where a migratory path is involved the turbines should be placed in line with the flight path, one behind the other so to speak, and not spread out in a line across the flight path. Many birds when migrating will fly higher than the turbines. There will undoubtedly be casualties for some of the larger birds regardless of migration, I know that there are particular concerns for the Little Bustard in Deux-Sevres.

The case with bats is somewhat different and a great deal of research is still being conducted. Generally, most bats during the course of their normal activity fly beneath the hight of the turbine blades, but there are concerns about what happens when they migrate as they fly higher and do not use their sonar continuously, only using it in short bursts. There is also evidence that the "sound" of the blades turning disrupts their sonar and disorientates them.

Overall, the view of the wildlife associations is that providing these considerations have been taken into account wind farms are a good source of renewable energy.

Deux-Sèvres Nature Environnement

Hôtel de la Vie Associative
12, rue J.Cugnot
79000 NIORT
Tél : 05.49.73.37.36 – Fax : 05.49.09.23.85
[email protected]
http://www.dsne.org

Groupe Ornithologique
des Deux-Sèvres (GODS)

Hôtel de la Vie associative
12, rue J. Cugnot
79000 NIORT
Tél : 05.49.09.24.49 – Fax : 05.49.09.23.85
[email protected]
http://ornitho79free.fr

 

Chris.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like wind turbines.  They are far more attractive then the alternative - a dirty great power station next door.  I've walked around close to wind turbines here in France in all sorts of wind conditions, and they make no more noise than the trees in my garden.

I've never seen a dead bird anywhere near one, even those some miles to the north of the Somme estuary, which must be on a major migration route.

Every time I see them turning I'm reminded of the inexhaustible power of nature.

I never heard anyone complain about the windmills that used to be common all over East Anglia, Belgium & Holland.  In fact most people regarded them as quaintly attractive.  What's the difference?

It would surely be reasonable to insist that people who object to wind generators should pay twice the price for electricity, on the grounds that a) they are imposing a genuinely ugly power station on someone else, and b) they should pay to clean up the mess made by the power stations they seem to prefer.

I'm certain this modest proposal will win lots of support.

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

850kW is actually quite small - just over half the size of the most commonly installed wind generator. So noise is unlikely to be an issue unless the turbines are to an outdated design or badly sited / erected. Conventional power stations do not have to be ugly. There are too many that are unimaginative square boxes with big chimneys and unsightly pipework, but some are far better designed. Unfortunately that art has been largely lost since Giles Gilbert Scott (Battersea and Bankside - Tate Modern).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pat, I suspect your 'modest proposal' will be about as popular as Dean Swift's.

I agree with you, I think there is something rather elegant in wind turbines, and they also remind me that we are progressing into the future just a bit, instead of the retreat from reason I seem to see everywhere.

But of course, just like MMR and Mobile Phone masts there will be those who will ascribe all sorts of ills to them.

Chris - how do they kill birds? None of the ones I have seen rotate very quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The basic problem with wind powered electricity generation is,-well... pretty basic really, it only happens when the wind blows. All wind power needs backing up by (generally) thermal generating plants.

Thermal plants need to be kept on hot standby as they are not rapid start units, therefore fuel is being burnt to maintain that standby status.

There are alternatives such as pumped storage hydro units which can have a very quick start ability but are obviously limited to appropriate geographical locations.

There are very many days in winter when the wind is not either constant or strong enough and thats just when the electrical demand is highest.

Whether they are seen as 'elegant' structures, a sign of the future or as a danger to birds is, in real terms, academic. They are pretty useless when considered for mass power generation requirements. It may be an unpalatable fact (for some) but the answer is nuclear, either fission or fusion in respect of base load generation. Peaking requirements can be met by a mixture of other methods but I dont see forum members wanting a to read a long treatise on generation methods and system planning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are right Steve wind power can never be a 100% replacement for other power generation systems, but hydro plants have to shut down through lack of water, solar collectors shut down at night, nuclear, gas and coal stations shut down for maintenance.  So nothing is a 100% solution. 

Living in the Rhine valley, I pass a hundred or so turbines every day on my journey to work.  You would be truely amazed to see them turning even on days when the air is apparently still and in fog (which cannot remain in windy conditions).   And I too find them elegant, quiet (the traffic on the road is noisier) and have not found a pile of carcasses underneath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think that whether it affects your house price is neither here nor there, we are having some built near us, and I mean very near, just about on the legal distance limit and I am quite happy with this, so I'm not defending something that I'm not willing to have in my own back yard.

They may look slow and graceful, Dick, but you wouldn't want to be hit on the head by one of those blades when they are turning, at best they will break a lot of bones if a bird makes contact.

See you later, Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have a number of these too (about 60 so far) In the main they are sensibly placed far from houses etc (there are one or two notable exceptions that seem very close to houses) By their nature they have to be in exposed positions so are visble from a long distance but to me at least, they do not intrude. Certainly not as much as some dirty great power lines which gave no thought to the environment where they were placed.

My question is this, at times when there is no wind, as Andy said, in fog, the blades still turn.  Am I correct in thinking that at these times they are being used for load balancing and are actually being driven like motors to soak up the excess power generated by the thermal plants? 

Actually, load balancing from wind turbines must be a real headache given the variable nature of the output

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]

My question is this, at times when there is no wind, as Andy said, in fog, the blades still turn.  Am I correct in thinking that at these times they are being used for load balancing and are actually being driven like motors to soak up the excess power generated by the thermal plants? 

Actually, load balancing from wind turbines must be a real headache given the variable nature of the output

[/quote]

I suppose they could be 'motoring' as synchronous condensers for voltage control, but I've never heard / read of that use.

There is not really an excess of power generated by thermal plants, automatic system frequency control adjusts the generation output from selected plants to compensate for rising frequency on demand reduction and vice versa. Unfortunately ( for the generating company) having units on frequency control is not the most cost effective operating method due to innefficient running. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've got half a dozen going up on farmland on the edge of the commune

next to a busy road. We're on the side of the village nearest to the

installation and even so we're about 4km away.

There was a public enquiry. The company involved in the building laid

out all kinds of info about noise footprint, etc - they will make

considerably less noise than the road and that is inaudible under most

weather conditions.

Property blight? I don't know. I doubt it somehow - certainly the

demand for housing in this village (well, word got out in the end)

remains very strong. No one had any real objections and most people

seem pleased by the idea. The commune is a partner in the venture and

we stand to gain quite a lot of money as a community.

I'm with some of the others - I rather like them. Very relaxing to watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Will "]

What is needed is decentralised power, transmission losses alone can account for the loss of 30% of the power generated, which means 30% more carbon emissions etc than necessary.

[/quote]

Will,

Where did you get the figure of 30% from ?

UK Transmission and Distribution losses in 1998 are stated as 7.4% a far cry from the 30% you quote. I cant see that the percentage losses will be radically different today, in fact they may even be less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The loss is presumably proportional to the distance over which the power is transmitted.  This can produce different average loss figures in different countries.

Decentralised production (more but smaller local generating plants) would mean less distance from the supplying plant to the consumer.  Therefore less power loss would be experienced than if sending power over great distances from a few large generating stations.

Am I right?

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Patrick,

Power line losses are a function of line current and conductor resistance, the conventional method of reducing losses is to increase the line voltage and hence (by ohms law) reduce the current. As the loss calculation uses the current squared value a reduction of current due to higher voltage has a drammatic effect. There are limiting voltage values which are effectively tied into plant and infrastructure capex but in a relatively 'power dense' environment such as Europe / UK its not really an issue.

It is quite true that smaller local generating stations have a number of valuable advantages. The criteria for such stations is really that of cost of fuel transport to the station compared with cost of losses over distance transmitted ( an oversimplification perhaps but I am sure you know what I mean).

Going back to the original thread of wind power, such power generation obviously has its place in the grand scheme of things but until such time as storage of the energy generated is satisfactorily addressed there is, realistically, little point in covering the countryside with egg-beaters. I believe also that the cost of production (materials, fabrication, construction etc) is actually greater than the life time return expected from the wind turbines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having a small wind turbine on one's roof seems to be the new "must have" product for some in the UK.  B & Q have sold oodles over the past few weeks @ £1500 approximately each. 

There was a report in the paper a few days ago about a chap who now has one on his roof.  It will take 15 years to pay back the cost of purchase and installation. Currently it generates sufficient electricity to power a hair-dryer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Thibault"]

Having a small wind turbine on one's roof seems to be the new "must have" product for some in the UK.  B & Q have sold oodles over the past few weeks @ £1500 approximately each. 

There was a report in the paper a few days ago about a chap who now has one on his roof.  It will take 15 years to pay back the cost of purchase and installation. Currently it generates sufficient electricity to power a hair-dryer. 

[/quote]

I read the other day that it can take upwards of 50 years to recover the lifetime costs of a wind turbine, and they have an expected service life of 25 years !!!!!!!!   [8-)]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="powerdesal"]Where did you get the figure of 30% from ?
UK Transmission and Distribution losses in 1998 are stated as 7.4% a far cry from the 30% you quote. I cant see that the percentage losses will be radically different today, in fact they may even be less.
[/quote]

The 30% maximum is a figure regularly quoted at conferences etc and is well known in the power generation industry (in which I am currently involved). My latest reference is from a presentation about environmentally friendly energy that I was at last week in Vaasa, in Finland. It was also mentioned by the Green Party and the Carbon Trust among others at a series of seminars in Birmingham the previous week, that I organised. Note that it is 'up to' 30% - a modern, well-maintained, ultra high tension transmission line can achieve around 10% losses, though the length of the transmission line has a big bearing on it. 30% loss is common with older, longer distance, installations, one reason why the USA, for example, has so many small local power stations, wind farms etc feeding into the grid. As with all such statistics, there are various ways of measuring them - environmental interests, particularly those promoting distributed power and opposed to building transmission lines, will use the higher figures while those responsible for distribution will show lower figures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will,

Its a great play on words the 'up to 30%', why stop there, why not 'up to 50%', after all, 7.4% fits into 'up to 50%' just as easily.

I too am a power generation professional, and have been since an apprenticeship with C.E.G.B. ( remember them). I believe the point you make about environmental interests using higher figures is the whole point. Why let the truth get in the way ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="powerdesal"]Will,

Its a great play on words the 'up to 30%', why stop there, why not 'up to 50%', after all, 7.4% fits into 'up to 50%' just as easily.

I too am a power generation professional, and have been since an apprenticeship with C.E.G.B. ( remember them). I believe the point you make about environmental interests using higher figures is the whole point. Why let the truth get in the way ?

[/quote]

As in "upwards of 50 years" and "expected service life of 25 years", perhaps?

Hoist on your own petard, I think.

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do agree with you Steve - figures can be used to demonstrate anything. My professional involvement is on the publishing/exhibitions/events side of things rather than actually within the power industry so I think we can be fairly neutral and unbiased on the often emotive 'green' issues. Though I am going to a trade association AGM tomorrow so may come home with some more statistics to confuse me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...