Census

[Will]

[quote user="Miki"]But as ever, some will look back with fondness about something that never was, just as Thachersim will still have its supporters, even though her wets and fawning supporters stabbed her in the back and wanted her gone...Makes one wonder, when I hear some people talk, why she is still not in power really !!

[/quote]

However much we hated what she represented, one had to admire her for her spirit. Though I could never run to 'fondness'.

The way she got chucked out obviously made a very big dent in that spirit, she had previously considered herself indispensible, and losing Denis made another. He was far from the bumbling oaf of popular fiction, having done very well in the oil business before Margaret was famous.

A major client in London was just round the corner from her Belgravia home, I went past her house on the way to the offices from Victoria Station, and saw Maggie several times. Although getting weaker in the body, she still has a steely determination about her, not somebody to be trifled with even now. Seeing that, and thinking of her ineffective, charisma-challenged successors, it's not difficult to see why those of her political persuasion might want her back - but fortunately never to be I think. And she still merits a full-time police guard outside her house, despite having passed her sell-by date years ago in governmental terms.

[Teamedup]

Sorry to hear that 5-element. I have mentioned this in the past, but we tend to get a bit stuck on here about the parents leaving to their kids and not the obligations that children have to their parents under french law.

I must say that some of the stories I have heard over the years have shocked me.

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Miki"][quote] [/quote]

Well LG, probably the same place that says that all French pensioners get double the UK pension, that life is slower in France, that all the Brits coming here will stay here for life à la "never going back", that no racism exists, that kids are free to roam safely wherever they want, schooling is magnifique that no grafiti exists and on and on...France is great at one thing though, it leads the way in Myths to Brits [;-)]

[/quote]

Well, at least I know that lot is a load of B*****ks! [:-))] Can't believe anyone falls for that rubbish!   Had my move to France been planned for my late 40s /early 50s, this would have been essential research not to be skimmed over. Any other approach would have been irresponsible.

Having said that, I think the information coming out by those in the know, on this thread, should be part of an essential France pack for those moving here in their later years. Oh, and I think that their off-springs back in the UK should know too.

As a matter of interest, apart from one poster who has -to his integrity - openly admitted that he would return if things don't work out in the next couple of years, are there any other forumers who had planned on a return to the UK in their senior senior years? Just interested....

[Gardian]

Well, returning to the original thread, the Enumerator came round this afternoon.

All very inoccuous: one form covering the property (number of rooms, overall living area, date of construction, etc) and one each for myself and my wife (date and place of birth, when we moved in to the commune, occupation / previous occupation, etc).  She wrote the answers on to the form there and then and was on her way in 15 mins.

The only 'contentious' bit was my explanation of the Royaume Uni / Grande Bretagne / Angleterre thing, with a back of a fag packet map to explain it all.  She shook her head and expressed the view that the whole thing was "Bizarre"  - she'd put us down as Anglais rather than Britannique and that was that! 

[Cassis]

And if you were Welsh?

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Cassis"]And if you were Welsh?
[/quote]

Then they would really be ''Britannique''. Aren't the Welsh the real Bretons/ Britains or did the teachers lie to us again? 

To really confuse the Census people, tell them the English are originally Germans.  I've had this problem with officialdom, trying to explain to them  that ''Anglais/e) is not a ''nationality'' but an ''Ethnie'' like the Bretons, Occitans, Catalans etc. Therefore, the legal nationality is ''Britannique''. 

It's always fun watching their expressions.  To really annoy them , which I do to get my own back for them wasting my time, show them your passport and ask them to find any reference to ''English'' in terms of nationality or citizenship.

 They love me here![:-))] 

[Cassis]

We love you here as well, LDG. [:D]

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Cassis"]We love you here as well, LDG. [:D]
[/quote]

Thanks Cassis! I know you mean it.[:-))] 

The fonctionnaires love me so much here, they are surely counting the days till I move to another dept. But no way. I'm staying and they'll just have to count me as Britannique in their census.

[Cassis]

If I ever have the good fortune to be caught in the Census net, perhaps I should say I am "Geordais".  Do you think that would work?

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="Cassis"]If I ever have the good fortune to be caught in the Census net, perhaps I should say I am "Geordais".  Do you think that would work?
[/quote]

Wouldn’t recommend it, Cassis.  You’ll be labelled as some mad revolutionary and put under 24-hour surveillance.

What I love is when they ''correct'' you and put Anglais/e as they did with Gardian.[8-)]

[Pangur]

[quote user="Will "]

I too have been an enumerator in Britain, and find the French census system a joke. The areas to be counted are chosen by the relevant authorities, as Clair says.

The official figures show up a lot of other anomalies resulting from this selective counting policy. I remember reading somewhere that France is shown in a certain set of government figures to have a considerably higher percentage of Portuguese immigrants than British - this is because the census results from one city and its surroundings in the south were interpolated across the whole of France.

[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France  According to INSEE, the highest # of foreign born immigrants living in France are indeed the Portugese - the Brits are nowhere close.  Unsurprising as the British do not have a long tradition of emigration in the same way that other, historically poorer, European countries did and when they did emigrate, it was generally to colonies or ex-colonies.  I studied the waves of French immigration throughout the century as part of a degree course, and the British were not even mentioned.  You may not notice the Portuguese - probably not buying up country farmhouses[;-)] - but they have been coming in great numbers since after WW1 at least.  Even the Italians are more populous than Brits.  Remember, the census counts people living in France and born in other countries - not holiday home owners.

• 880,000 Portuguese
• 700,000 Algerians

600,000 Moroccans

350,000 Italians

280,000 Spaniards

200,000 Turks

200,000 Tunisians

135,000 Chinese

120,000 Germans

100,000 Britons

100,000 Belgians

100,000 Poles

75,000 Vietnamese

70,000 Senegalese

60,000 Malians

The UK system also has a lot of drawbacks - during the last census Westminister was undercounted by an estimated 10%.  They ended up commissioning a private sector agency o do it properly   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3877217.stm       &   http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,,883653,00.html 

Census enumerators regularly undercount the marginal in society - the homeless, the drug addicts, and those who have various reasons for not wanting to be counted.  It's pretty easy to count farmers - not so easy to count the number of people actually living in an HLM.  INSEE is a reputable organisation and in a survey of this size, I can guarantee that there are as many checks and balances as practible. The local towns cannot devise the methodology and fake the entire census of their town. No system is perfect and a regular sample rather than a proper census every 10 years has advantages 

http://www.insee.fr/fr/recensement/nouv_recens/enquete_2007/notice_anglais.htm for details of the census en anglais..

[5-element]

(Edit: Pangur - fast-fingered- slipped in the very interesting and informative post above, whereas mine, as below, was following on to LG's)

But you know, they are conceptually challenged with that label of "les Anglais".

It is quite frequent to hear a news presenter on any of the channels, referring to Brits as "les Anglais", even now. Even after someone might point out that Ecossais is not Anglais, Gallois is not Anglais, etc...

Occasionally they will change it to "les Anglophones" - which of course, includes Canadiens, Australians, and even Americans. Unless that is when they say "les Anglo-Saxons", and I am never quite sure what exactly is meant by that, where it starts and where it finishes. Still, they don't have to bother with such intricate definitions on the census forms....

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="5-element"]

But you know, they are conceptually challenged with that label of "les Anglais".

It is quite frequent to hear a news presenter on any of the channels, referring to Brits as "les Anglais", even now. Even after someone might point out that Ecossais is not Anglais, Gallois is not Anglais, etc...

Occasionally they will change it to "les Anglophones" - which of course, includes Canadiens, Australians, and even Americans. Unless that is when they say "les Anglo-Saxons", and I am never quite sure what exactly is meant by that, where it starts and where it finishes. Still, they don't have to bother with such intricate definitions on the census forms....

[/quote]

But then, to most Britons, France only has French people in it. They have no idea, generally, that groups like Bretons and Basques exist here and they probably care less. So why should most French care that Britain has a whole selection of  peoples other than the English?

[Cassis]

Cos our BRIT distincions are IMPORTANT of course.  Honestly, what a daft question.

[5-element]

[quote user="Jon"]


But then, to most Britons, France only has French people in it. They have no idea, generally, that groups like Bretons and Basques exist here and they probably care less. So why should most French care that Britain has a whole selection of  peoples other than the English?
[/quote]

Britons, Basques, Corsicans, are still des Francais, living in France ( a republic with  "indivisibility|" as one of the fundamental priciples - even if they would like their independence!

Welsh and Scots do not live in England, and they are not English. Therein lies the difference Jon!

[LanguedocGal2]

Jon, the ordinary French may not  know the different ethnic groups of the British Isles, Spain, Switzerland, Belgium etc but if corrected, it would probably be nice of them to accept the correction as I do when they correct me on the local culture.

However, the fact that officialdom in France is ignorant of the difference between Britannique and Anglais is stupid, especially for a country that loves form filling. 

I personally find the whole thing funny but fail to understand the inability of journalists and fonctionnaires  to get that right. I have watched news reports/documentaries where they have used Les Anglais and les Britanniques interchangeably.

It cannot be that difficult for professionals to learn the difference between the language/ethnic groups of a country and the official nationality.

Simple professionalism is what I’m talking about. 

[Iceni]

[quote user="5-element"]

Welsh and Scots do not live in England ........... 

[/quote]

Of course they do, mostly at Westminster.

John

not

[Teamedup]

We have discussed the les anglais, les britanniques thing many times. 

We have concluded that as a sort of general rule, Les Anglais is said on the tv when there is something bad, or to do with something where there is anglo/french disagreement. Whereas Les Britanniques is when there is something good, or decent and there is mutual agreement.

 

Just what we think, but we find that it just about sums it up as far as we are concerned.

[hastobe]

Completely opposite to in the UK then....

Kathie

[LanguedocGal2]

TU, I can't say I have noticed this distinction on TV reports/discussions but I'll pay attention and see. 

What were your conclusions about the Fonctionnaires not knowing the difference? When I first arrived, I decided to apply for a Carte de Sejour and the woman was going to write 'Anglaise' on the form. I decided not to proceed but I wonder what would have gone on the actual Carte? 

It's not a personal thing, with me. They could write Nepalese for all I care as I'm only interested in the end results of their bureaucratic processes. I simply think it's strange as they never seem to make the same mistakes with Belgium, Spain and Swizerland. So, why are the Brits so fortunate?

Perhaps a French person on the forum can explain? Does it come from the education system?

[Gardian]

[quote user="Pangur"]

According to INSEE, the highest # of foreign born immigrants living in France are indeed the Portugese

[/quote]

That statistic surprised me, but it shouldn't have done.  When we visited Porto and Lisbon a few years ago, it was interesting to learn that (at least there, rather than perhaps on the Algarve), French is the 2nd language rather than English (as in most other European countries).  There were also direct flights from Porto to places like Bordeaux and I would never have expected there to be sufficient traffic to warrant a service.

Another strange one was the number of Madeirans living and working in Jersey - direct charter flights between the two places as well..  

[Will]

To be fair, it's not just the French. It seems that many non-English speaking countries have difficulty with the difference between 'British' and 'English'.

Although born in England, I do tend to be quite fussy about being Britsih, and my carte de sejour says, quite clearly, 'Britannique'. My country of birth is 'Grande Bretagne'. Although I might have preferred 'Angleterre' n this instance, I think GB is far preferable to the more usual 'Royaume-Uni'.

[Teamedup]

[quote user="LanguedocGal2"]

TU, I can't say I have noticed this distinction on TV reports/discussions but I'll pay attention and see. 

What were your conclusions about the Fonctionnaires not knowing the difference? When I first arrived, I decided to apply for a Carte de Sejour and the woman was going to write 'Anglaise' on the form. I decided not to proceed but I wonder what would have gone on the actual Carte? 

It's not a personal thing, with me. They could write Nepalese for all I care as I'm only interested in the end results of their bureaucratic processes. I simply think it's strange as they never seem to make the same mistakes with Belgium, Spain and Swizerland. So, why are the Brits so fortunate?

Perhaps a French person on the forum can explain? Does it come from the education system?

[/quote]

I remember when I had a very nice conseiller at the Credit Mutuel, as opposed to the flagrant liar we had later and that was why we swopped banks, sorry for digressing. I once told the nice bloke that it wasn't easy for us etrangers, and he said, Madam, vous n'etes pas une etrangere, vous etes anglaise. Never quite worked out exactly what he meant, but I am sure that it was meant in the nicest possible way.

Functionnaires, well I 'm not sure if I would notice the anglais thing really amoungst all the other betise one has to put up with sometimes. Saying that and wanting to be fair, many functionnaires are so much better than they ever were, which makes those dinosaurs, the rude, ignorant, belligerent twerps seem even worse than they ever were. Which reminds me I have to do something about a connasse at our Prefecture who deals with titre de sejours.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="LanguedocGal2"]

I simply think it's strange as they never seem to make the same mistakes with Belgium, Spain and Swizerland.

[/quote]

Are you saying that the French make note on their multitudinous forms to the effect that one can be either Vlaams, Wallon or just plain Belgian depending on preference? How very accomodating of them. I can't say I'd noticed their making these clear distinctions. I shall have to pay more attention to news items about Belgium as and when they occur.

[Pangur]

As a non Brit, I seem to find that only English people (and Ulster loyalists) refer to themselves as British - Scots tell the French they're Scottish and Welsh that they're Welsh.  Wild generalisations, I know, but I honestly have yet to meet a Celt who first identifies themselves as British.  So maybe the French just got fed up with being told off for not differenentiating between the Scots, Welsh (and being rounded on by the Irish for daring to insinuate any hint of Britishness[:)]) and just assume the English don't mind being called English...  Plus, they're big rugby fans here - I think they have a pretty good ideas of the differences between nations in Great Britain.

 I've always been pleasantly surprised by their knowledge of the Irish, and Irish politics - in fact, far superior to the general knowledge in the UK, where the media and individuals regularly refers to Irish as being British, part of the British Isles (a v sensitive subject!), putting Irish news in the "Home News" section, references to "the mainland"  assuming a European stamp is not needed when posting to Dublin from the UK etc etc. I wasted a lot of green pens complaining to people when I lived in the UK!  But basically, people outside a country generally don't know and don't care about these subleties.  Any French person insisting I am English or British gets called Belgian or Swiss Romande - that seems to make them understand the differences![:D]