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Gardian
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[quote user="Will "]

I worked as an enumerator in the 1981, 1991 and 2001 censuses. These were central government projects undertaken through the local authorities (District Councils) on behalf of the Office of National Statistics. I don't know where the Department of Health came in to it, unless this was a different study being undertaken in the same year.

[/quote]

As I recall (and it was about a dozen years ago and sometimes I have difficulty remembering things that happened last week) she was getting data that had already been part processed and using it to make forecasts for care provision. When she quoted me the 30% figure I did raise an eyebrow - perhaps two - because I had an idea that not completing a census form could get you into all kinds of trouble, but she just laughed somewhat bitterly, poured even larger drinks and said did I remember the Poll Tax and did I really think that the government was really going to prosecute several hundreds of thousands of people for not filling in a form? She could be a little cynical, so I suppose she could have been exagerating.

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Not necessarily. Probably what she meant about the Poll Tax was that poorer people realised that if they never appeared on the official lists (census, electoral roll, poll tax) they might never have to pay it. It was certainly one reason why voting rates fell so low in some areas.

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First of all, I have to agree with Will.  When we were Enumerators (I think in '81 & '91), some of the areas we did were (shall we say) somewhat iffy. However, the supervisors were clear about the requirements and prepared to deal with the more 'difficult' clients themselves.

No matter how difficult the area was, I never experienced any personal threat and (from memory) cannot recall much less than a handful of refusals. Jon - I can't relate to 70% refusals.   Some have philosophical reasons for it: some are just bloody difficult.  Either way, that was a matter for them and I doubt that they were ever prosecuted.  There was no real need - the statisticians will have built that in to their equations.

Since you raise it Dick, I thought that the Poll Tax was a good concept, but appalingly badly sold.  Or am I alone? 

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[quote] Since you raise it Dick, I thought that the Poll Tax was a good concept, but appalingly badly sold.  Or am I alone? [/quote]

So how do you sell something like that, any better than the way it was bought in......not tell anyone, give Tesco points [:)] [;-)] Good concept, not in my book !!

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Ok Miki, this is potentially opening a whole can of worms, but I'll try to keep it as brief and objective as possible.

First of all, PAYE, NHI and local tax et al are ultimately all the same thing - they're taxation, which we all have to pay, whether in the UK, France or wherever.  The only question is how (and how fairly) the taxation is raised and then how it is distributed (for national and local needs).  To me, all taxation should be raised through PAYE (more-or-less as we know it) with appropriate allowances according to needs / circumstances.  Simple and administratively cheap to collect.  Distribution needn't be that hard, although as ever contentious.

The concept is that everyone would pay their overall tax according to their means - broadly speaking low income, low or nil tax, and the converse.

Anyway, as I remember it, the Poll Tax was aimed at applying local tax (or Rates as we knew it then) to all earning members of a household, thus if there was an earning couple, with a son and a daughter both living at home and earning, then they would be liable for 4x whatever the going rate was. Not perfect of course, but a blooming sight better than the old Rates system which took no account of the demands placed by a family upon society and it's responsibilities to fund same. 

Like you, I no longer live in the UK, but I sense the level of opposition to the existing Council Tax escalating and it'll get worse with the re-valuation exercise that's impending.  People feel that it's unfair.

Time for a complete re-think, as in my paras 1-3?      

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The French censuses are concerned with statistics about the population and the buildings, and, because they tend to go for samples rather than the whole population, are somewhat less useful for genealogical research than those in many other countries. You can get a flavour of what information is available for public use for communes other than large towns and cities counted in the last three years at http://www.insee.fr/fr/recensement/nouv_recens/resultats/commune.htm. Not all communes are included, by any means, but if yours isn't, chances are that one or more of its neighbours will be,so you can get a feel for the area..
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Gardian

Like yourself, I still cannot understand the knee-jerk reaction to the Poll Tax, except from people who wished to stay outside of the system for some reason, It seems a very fair, and egalitarian, way of collecting local revenues, and yet it generated such a huge volume of hatred from the -  presumably -  egalitarian left wing.

I was in The Strand on the day of the Poll Tax riot, and witnessed first-hand the mindless damage by the mob!

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As you say, a can of worms and one subject I have had heated debates over, for too many years.

I can only say it was a completely unjust tax. You have to remember,  that even all these years after its inevitable demise, by baying about the evil poll tax being OK and better than the tax in place now, one has little or no idea as to how much the poll tax would have risen to keep in touch with inflation and that's without successive govts putting it up even more anyway. So one cannot simply defend the poll tax by mentioning the cost of the council tax. And as someone who pays hefty Taxe fonc and Taxe hab here, I can't subscribe to those who say how cheap it is here.

As for Valleyboy and the violence, I had two nieces slung in a Maria and done on trumped up charges by two evil B******s who had their come uppance when the charge was thrown out and the police warned as to expecting flimsy evidence to be acceptable, their actual crime, marching with the others and going off to find a toilet, where they were attacked. That march was highly emotive and made far, far worse by the inapropriate actions by too many macho policemen, fuelled by a do anything attitude. No, it was sickening from my view, more from the police side, than anything done by the marchers, who had come from all walks of life and an all party cross selection to boot, something rarely, if ever seen in England.

Lastly, she was warned by many, far more intelligent than her, as to the effect this would have and how unworkable it would likely to turn out but still, if for nothing else, it put the final nail in her coffin, merci dieu

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Yet another thing I missed. Was that before or after the Miners strike?

From afar, it still looks like the council tax thing needs sorting. I actually don't mind parts of the system in France, an owners tax and a residents tax and I'm saying that in spite of ours being expensive and what we pay in a month it would seem many other posters pay in a year.

I would be for an owers tax in the UK and then a local tax charged to everyone who is earning or has revenue. Dare say it won't happen, but I wouldn't mind such a change.

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Our council like many has now gone to a rubbish collection where recycled rubbish is collected one week, other rubbish the next. There are four adults in this house and its becoming quite stressful to keep within those limits. BTW outside of Christmas they will not take extra bags.

Many people have bought incinerators, fly tipping has increased Goodness knows what is being flushed away...........

I have taken to transporting a bag of rubbish a week to my mothers, as she lives on her own and her bin is nearly empty !

Perhaps if we had a taxed based on the number per household we would have adequate collection services ? Or bin capacity related to the amount of people in the property.

BTW I signed a petition about this and got a letter from our local councilor who asked why we were complaining now ? After all it isn't hot enough to make the excess rubbish a problem - doh - lets wait for that then...............[:(][:(]

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I would really like to do this. I mean, I really really would.

I would like EVERYONE to take all the packing and wrapping back to the supermarket they bought it from and dump it at their doorstep. AND then maybe they would understand why they need to rethink the whole thing.

It isn't our fault that we have so much rubbish these days, in fact, we end up buying the xloody stuff with the things we really want to buy and who wants most of it anyway. I don't.

When we first moved to France there were deconsignes for lots of the bottles in supermarkets. Even our local viticulteur would take bottles back. So what happens, in this new green thinking age, they stop it. All bottles to be chucked and remade, like melting glass and remaking bottles is a good thing for the enviroment.

 

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I think lots of food is over packaged - a pizza for example - polystyrene circle under the base, shrinkwrap then a cardboard box......because we scan (Waitrose) we at least avoid carrier bags.

Some other stuff is incredibly hard to get into because of the wrapping .........[:(]

Frankly I suspect the rubbish regime we have now is going to create more problems than it solves.

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We now recycle a lot, but there seems to be an irreducable minimum of polystyrene packaging which is huge. I keep promising to stop going to supermarkets so much, and buying from markets in France and proper shops in England, but even there plastic packaging is starting to take over. It's so wasteful.

I no longer use plastic carrier bags - I have bought a load of folding shopping bags in Sainsburys which take up very little room when empty and work well in the car.

I remember years ago buying a ballpoint which came in a box in a box with plastic wrappers and so forth, taking it all off and asking the assistant to throw it away for me. She looked at me as though I was mad. I don't know how that would go down now, but the packaging is no less. I am also much exercised by the amount of waste paper that comes through my letterbox!

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We just had this given to us by the SY.D.E.D du Lot..... Syndicat mixte Départemental pour l'Elimination des Déchets ménagers et assimilés. I am still undecided as to whether or not I should stick it on my post box?

best regards

Zak

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/dago49/stop-pub.jpg[/IMG]

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We already have Pas de Pub on our letter box, which is OK apart from La Poste, who also get flyers to deliver and are obliged to do so. I think I will start putting this rubbish back in their post boxes, when they deliever it. I mark all unsolicited mail return to sender and they get it back.

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UK council tax and the various other taxes ( which may or may not 'officially' called taxes) are a very emotive subject.

My own view is that every resident of a particular area should pay a local council tax to fund the services that are available to them. That means every wage earner, irrespective of how many live in whatever house. After all, the size of your house or the view from the windows does not affect the supply of local services, so why should residents of large houses pay more than those living in smaller ones, where is the logic?

Similarly in respect of 'National' taxation. The citizens of a country fund the govt and its various functions, therefore each wage earning citizen / resident should pay a contribution. However, does, for example, it cost more to defend a high wage earner than a low wage earner, is the amount of policing dependent on an individuals salary - no of course not, so why does more income mean more tax?

There are no doubt some economist types who will respond .

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Miki

I am sure your nieces were totally innocent of any wrongdoing, however they were not the only people there that day. I don't think it was the Metropolitan Police, or even members of other forces drafted into help, who, for example set fire to a builder's Portakabin site office, or smashed windows in every possible building.

And while you make the sweeping statement that the tax was unjust, you do not say hy you think this.

I have never heard a reasoned justification for this hatred of the Poll Tax.

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[quote user="Dick Smith"]We now recycle a lot, but there seems to be an irreducable minimum of polystyrene packaging which is huge. I keep promising to stop going to supermarkets so much, and buying from markets in France and proper shops in England, but even there plastic packaging is starting to take over. It's so wasteful.

I no longer use plastic carrier bags - I have bought a load of folding shopping bags in Sainsburys which take up very little room when empty and work well in the car.

I remember years ago buying a ballpoint which came in a box in a box with plastic wrappers and so forth, taking it all off and asking the assistant to throw it away for me. She looked at me as though I was mad. I don't know how that would go down now, but the packaging is no less. I am also much exercised by the amount of waste paper that comes through my letterbox!
[/quote]

Did anyone catch the report on French news last week about the amount of UK's waste being shipped to India for recycling?  It may have been old news to some people, but I was shocked.

Where is the sense in our sorting waste, taking it to the recycle bins etc if any possible benefit to the environment is overcome by the money-saving tactics of shipping it to India and having it recycled there.  The waste from the plastics recycling process is being pumped un-treated into India's waterways.  Has the world gone quite mad?

 

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So all I can say Valleyboy is,  did you yourrself ever look

in to its total unfairness and just believed that millions of ordinary people who complained vociferously

were also wrong, as they had no sensible reason to be most annoyed by it ?

 How about different areas were charged differently, people

on low income money had to pay, albeit reduced but still had to pay. People

with good services paid more and that simply meant folks with an area of bad

services. Went to where the good services were i.e libraries, swimming pools,

sports clubs and municipal stadiums, schools, meaning you were penalised whilst

others got it.

 Businesses given breaks or grants in one area, were not

given them in another, so no need to say which politically run councils were benefiting

from these breaks………and many other, mostly non Tory councils were left

struggling to cope and the only was to raise the poll tax, which Thatcher knew

too well, would encourage people to believe that only Tory councils could

manage. The tax was also judged on the number of people, rather than the price

of the property, (wonder why?) this all too often had the effect of then

passing more taxes on to the less well off. It basically came down to many

people simply not being able to pay, thus the slogan was formed of Can’t pay,

won’t pay”, this was a genuine call for Thatcher to think again. Millions were

caught up, who simply could not afford to pay the amount sent to them

All over the country, councils were raising their “poll

taxes” to try and keep up with their services and all along the lady knowing full

well it would be unworkable, kept rabbiting that she was not for turning. It

was of course a clever ploy, she kept her supporters very happy (she was

desperate for their support as hers was waning very quickly by then) and the ones

she always believed would never vote for her anyway, were the ones suffering

this abominable tax. It was no surprise that in the end, the 3  rivals for her title, all said that the tax

would be scrapped on their being voted in as a leader.

Do you not remember reading at the time the number of splinter

groups that were only too happy to claim it was them that were causing damage,

as far as I can recall, very few normal everyday folks were ever charged with

vandalism or theft. The police had tried to tell the press that it as not left

wing anarchists who caused the problems but later on in court and thanks to

many hours of police tapes strangely being found, and these were influential in

ensuring many hundreds of  people walked

away proving that the police had fabricated or inflated the defendants charges.

And you would do well to remember, the Met police offered an apology that their

very own poor tactics had fuelled the problems on the day.

In June of 1990, 2000 people attended court on the IOW,

1800 were dismissed, this happened all over the country, the judges simply

could not nahle the futility of charging people with fines, when most were

unable to even pay the tax itself !

 I have read and debated this problem for years, to be

honest, trying to explain it all by text, is not as good as reading (I am surprised you have not looked more in to it to be honest) or seeing the many documentaries that were made about the evil poll tax.

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Governments have no money of their own so have to levy taxes somewhere, somehow. I was in favour of Poll Tax as I was likely to pay less under that regime than under the rates system. Others who were due to pay more opposed the new system.

The principle of Poll Tax was sound in that it's people not house size that create demand on services e.g a sewage farm is overwhelmed by the number of people not the number of loos - but n years later what's it matter, both PT and TINA are long gone.

BTW this thread seems to have moved off topic a bit.

John

not

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Not that simple John.

I and many others were there for others basic rights, we also would have been better off, not a lot but I never fell for Thatchers divide and rule policy with its get rich undertones mingled with selfish, me, me, me attitude so many adopted and look after number one, vote Tory and you will get all that as a right....no thanks, even her wets knew this time, it was a step too far. Quite simply the poll tax was unfair, unjust and unworkable but of course, if it meant cheaper payments to some but also meant multitudes others could not afford it ,so what eh !!

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