We are in France so we must speak French...why?

[Blitzen]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]

I'm also not convinced that all people are capable of learning a second language after a certain age (about 7) and relatively few really need one. That said, I enjoy reading and speaking French, quoting dog-Latin and so on, and wouldn't take the opportunity away from anyone who wanted to engage at whatever level they are comfortable with.

[/quote]

I agree.  Mind you the same could be said of quite a few subjects that are taught to our children. However they should have a choice to try ALL subjects and make up their own minds, which they can't do unless they've tried them first.

[TreizeVents]

I just can’t keep up with all of you.  I only manage to get on the forums once a

day at most.

I will take a risk and say that I have

learned to distrust or doubt a number of things said by British immigrants over

the years.  Especially in relation to

their French neighbours and French language proficiency.  And that this is important in understanding

what people write on this forum.  That

is, unless I ask detailed questions, or even observe first hand, I have no idea what

people really mean when they say things like “We get on great with our

neighbours, really nice people”.  Or “I

speak French well enough, people understand what I am saying”.  Once in a 

while I discover the French neighbours speak English, making “getting

on” a lot easier.  Once in a while I

find that the relations are of the most superficial kind you can imagine.  Its like saying “good morning” to a

neighbour in Britain, noting the weather is good or bad, and lending or

borrowing a tool now and again.  Once in

a while I find that the Anglos actually hardly see their neighbours at all, nor

do they have any trouble from them, and that, for them, is “getting on

well”.  Other times I am privileged to

hear the Anglos speaking with their neighbours, and it is clear they do NOT

understand each other very well at all. 

I know the feeling well, from the inside and from the outside.  I can hear my pals in the cycling club speak

a quick sentence, I make some noises (I find something like “uh-way” works

pretty well) and one or the other of us (or both) thinks there is

communication.  There is not.  I frequently use a kind of grunt (less

precise even than “uh wee”) to respond to French friends of mine who suddenly,

without context, come out with a sentence that is maybe five words long, and I

missed three of them.  My cycling buddy

Francois is like that.  Suddenly, riding

just in front of me on a cycle ride, he sweeps his arm out in some direction

and utters a seriously accented Midi phrase. 

It could mean anything.  “Look at

the bird”.  “My mother lived in that

house.”  “The grapes are almost ripe.”

It seems dumb to ask for a repetition, since by the context I know it was no

big deal.  Vague agreeing seems a good

idea.  But I actually have no idea what

they are saying, and they think that I am agreeing with them.  I used to call this “the Chinese smile and

nod”, until I learned it might be racist to use that phrase.  I did a lot of martial arts and so knew more

about Chinese immigrants than most.  Now

I just confess that I use the same “communication”, EVEN THOUGH my French is

not too bad, and I can talk to loads of people for many minutes.  This happens to me in the medical

specialist’s office.  My French wife

comes along to an appointment and I realise I missed about 3% of the conversation, and I don’t

know which bits I missed.  Furthermore I think I understood what was going

on.  I didn’t.  This does happen sometimes in English too, I should hasten to add.  And in case you are wondering, I get on with some neighbours and

some of them are disturbingly parochial, practically xenophobic, quite

uneducated and untravelled local yokels. 

My German pal Ernst calls them savages.  I don’t really have anything at all to do with

most of them.  With very few exceptions.  Same thing in Britain, actually.  Some neighbours you just wish they lived

somewhere else, or that you had moved to another house.  But don’t get me started on the family next

door. They don’t speak English at all, and their French is incomprehensible in

their back garden, and nearly incomprehensible to my wife even in the front of the house.  They speak really BAD French.

What I am saying is that when people say

they get on with their neighbours and that they communicate well with their

neighbours, it is simply not true in some cases, and in some others highly

dubious.  And this does not mean the

Anglos are lying.  Just that they don’t

really see it as it might be, mainly on account of cultural and linguistic

ignorance, in the sense of just “not knowing”.

I

should add that I will never be convinced that someone is serious about living

in France, unless they try their hardest to learn to speak the lingo.  With the possible awkward exception of

someone whose other half speaks very well, even though that makes the

monolingual one quite dependent.  I have

English friends who never know what the weather will be, know nothing about the

(French) news, don’t know the names of any prominent French people or

organisations, and it goes on. They often know where to buy the best  wine and where to buy delicious food.  Plus household goods.  For me this wilful ignorance is just plain

disrespectful and uncivilised.  I should

add that my mother was an immigrant, and hung out often with others from her

country of origin.  Many of them also did

not speak English, especially the older ones. 

You can find this in any country. 

But those immigrants were NOT, in any meaningful sense, living in their “chosen”

English speaking country.  I know this phenomenon

is widespread and not merely a problem of English immigrants

[hastobe]

I was quite amused with the comments that suggested that children should learn to speak welsh etc rather than french, spanish etc.  As a child I couldn't understand why I had to learn french and (so I am told) frequently asked my parents why I couldn't learn Welsh instead so that when we went 'abroad' (to Wales!)  I would be able to read the road signs etc!  I honestly never dreamed of being able to go as far as France and thought the time spent learning French was pointless.

I had to drop French after a couple of years (our school syllabus was quite restrictive so it was science or languages).  I never missed having French lessons - didn't get to visit France (or any other French speaking country) for more than fifteen years after and forgot most of the French I learned at school - with the exception of a few songs and the history of the Basque area - which I had found interesting (probably because it was a distraction from stupid verbs!).  When we did start holidaying there with the children I still never found that I needed much more than the phrases I could find in my little travellers phrase book.  My sister has never visited France - and has no desire to. Neither have my parents.

Since we developed more of an interest in France (and more recently bought a home) the need for French has become greater and so we have had private lessons every week for the last 15 months.  I can now read and write pretty well, chat regularly in French to a number of (french) friends on msn - and am frequently told my French is excellent (though I would debate that!!)

To learn anything there has to be a desire to learn - a purpose.  I can understand the point made above - that children should start to learn another language at an early age as it is, irrefutably, easier this way but this does presume that all children 'need' a second language - they don't.  Although derided above, for some children the time would be better spent learning to speak English properly - or learning to make a pizza, handle finances - or a saw and screwdriver. 

Although I was denied the chance of learning French (to any useful level) at school, I don't resent the fact at all.  What I do resent is the fact I was taught my own language so badly it has made it much harder to learn a second language - when I needed to.

Kathie

[Renaud]

Dick, (sorry for this bit of typical LF defensiveness) but I referred to the ‘political sensitivities of nonentities’ this is not quite synonymous with 'bureaucrats'. I completely agree that healthy languages don't need subsidies.

Jon, the participants of this forum are proof of the importance of learning a living language at school, maybe we are part of your 5%.

However, I have to say that my elder daughter thinks that it is valuable that Welsh children are taught to speak Welsh, as it leads to their having pride in their nation. Ditto the Irish and Gaelic. I maintain that this is a tough on the children. My younger daughter maintains that they should learn a living language too. Thank God for peacemakers (from whatever unlikely source).

To argue against myself you have to remember that Hebrew (as distinct from Yiddish) was almost extinct in 1946 but a positive determination to revive the language and make up words of all those things invented since biblical times has resulted in it becoming a living language and important part of the Israeli national identity.

But the Welsh and Irish ain’t quite in the situation that the Jews found themselves in at the end of WW2.

So will the children in an independent Scotland be made to to learn Gaelic? You heard it here first.

[Tresco]

This has been a vey intertesting conversation to catch up on.

I'm not going to get involved except to say that (Gaelic/Welsh) languages might now be regarded as 'defunct' because of double dodgy (Politics and/or Force) pressures 100/75/50 years ago?

If people still communicate in, and value, those languages, then I would tend to praise that, and those that value them, for doing so.

A bit of editing...by me.

 

 

[RumziGal]

[quote user="TreizeVents"]

I just can’t keep up with all of you.  I only manage to get on the forums once a day at most.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->I will take a risk and say that I have learned to distrust or doubt a number of things said by British immigrants over the years.  Especially in relation to their French neighbours and French language proficiency.  And that this is important in understanding what people write on this forum.  That is, unless I ask detailed questions, or even observe first hand, I have no idea what people really mean when they say things like “We get on great with our neighbours, really nice people”.  [/quote]

You're right, TV, it very much depends on one's perception.  A typical conversation in France goes:

-Salut, ça va?

-Beh oui, pas mal, et toi?

-Ouais, ça va.

-Bon alors, ciao!

Along with the kissing, it's just a little formula, like "Have a nice day", and really tells you absolutely nothing about the person saying it.   It's not necessarily a sign of genuine and enthusiastic friendship, but if people want to believe it is, that's fine!   Only time will tell.  

LOL, don't you love it when youngsters do the exaggerated "on fait la bise-euh?" followed by the MWAH-MWAH-MWAH air-kissing thing?   They've got the right idea, they can see right through it!   [:)]   

[Pancake]

Well I intend to have a go at learning the language when I get there this year.I know it will be a challenge. So if you come across someone with a Crocodile Dundee accent trying to speak French,it will be me..........[:D]

"Thats pas un couteau... ceci est un  de couteau"

"Jetez une autre crevette sur la bavure"

 

So..how was that ???

[RumziGal]

Yeah, chuck another prawn on the cockup, Sheila! 

You will go down a storm!  [:D] 

 

[KathyC]

[quote user="Pancake"]

Well I intend to have a go at learning the language when I get there this year.I know it will be a challenge. 

[/quote]

Yes but that's what puzzles a lot of us, why do people wait until they get to France to start learning?  Most people plan months (if not years ) in advance, but they leave the most important thing until last. I know that you may not be able to practse speaking until you arrive but grammar and vocabulary can all be started, so that the foundations are in place for when needed.

[Suze01]

[quote user="RumziGal"]

LOL, don't you love it when youngsters do the exaggerated "on fait la bise-euh?" followed by the MWAH-MWAH-MWAH air-kissing thing?   They've got the right idea, they can see right through it!   [:)]   

[/quote]

I disagree with that RG, I often have to pick up my son from collège (etude, no teacher etc but that's another issue)  and have to go in to sign him out.  Apart from numerous  kids that I know coming up to me to fait la bise, there are groups of boys and girls greeting each other  with bises as if it were the most natural thing to do and not some yuppie thing.

[fulcrum]

[quote user="KathyC"]

Personally I'd like to see them learning English properly!

Joking apart, if you have a proper grasp of the grammatical structures of your own language and some understanding of the derivation of  vocabulary it can facilitate the learning of foreign languages at any stage in the future.

[/quote]

This is so true.

Although I was born in England I once attended a year long (one evening a week) modern Greek course. This was before I had achieved any qualification in English. My English spelling was good but my grammar was lacking.

The teacher was constantly referring to the various structures in English, the proper names of which I had no clue, and other people on the course had to explain them to me. Anyway my Greek became OK and I then went on to get a qualification in English.

[DZ]

[quote user="Blitzen"][quote user="Jon"]

 Keep it as an option for those who want it, but why bother spending hours trying to teach children something in which most have little or no interest and which gains them no lasting benefit?

[/quote]

Unless children have the opportunity to learn a language, they will not know whether they are interested or what the possibilities are for a lasting benefit.  [/quote]

This was a most interesting discussion thread; I didn't  have the time to follow all of it, but I would like to illustrate my plea to any parents out there with the quote above: do try to make your children learn foreign languages, even though they might hate it at the time!  I still remember crying over having to learn English at the tender age of 8 and upwards but I can tell you for sure - the fact that I was forced to learn it has steered the course of my life into unexpected and wonderful waters.  In turn, I am now making my children have private lessons in French.  You never know, they might even thank me one day...

P.S. I do agree with all the comments about having to learn the English grammar properly.  The standard of English among my 20 - 30-something-years' old colleagues at work is appaling and I find myself (a foreigner) having to correct their spelling and grammar!

[Pancake]

[quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Pancake"]

Well I intend to have a go at learning the language when I get there this year.I know it will be a challenge. 

[/quote]

Yes but that's what puzzles a lot of us, why do people wait until they get to France to start learning?  Most people plan months (if not years ) in advance, but they leave the most important thing until last. I know that you may not be able to practse speaking until you arrive but grammar and vocabulary can all be started, so that the foundations are in place for when needed.

[/quote]

I have been learning but its hard to get the pronouciation right so I have been using CD's...I have spent the last six month trying to get out local Adult Learning Center to run French classes.....they have now agreed. They start the course two days after I leave to go to France for our holidays...[:'(]

[Chief]

[quote user="wen"]

 I think this attitiude...we are in France so we ALL have to speak French to the French just encourages the already exisiting discrimination and racism that exists here. And believe me, I have witnessed it here first hand.

[/quote]

Have to say i find your proposition astounding.  As a black man living in England (Born and bred), who constantly has to listen to pathetic diatribe from so called 'in the knows' who constantly bleat about 'Johnnie Foreigner' not even speaking 'our' language and doing things 'our' way, to hear you whine about having to speak French, IN FRANCE, is pathetic and hypocritical. If i had my way, you wouldn't even be allowed to emigrate until you could speak the language of your chosen destination.  If speaking French IN FRANCE is a problem for you......LEAVE.

[Miki]

[quote] If speaking French IN FRANCE is a problem for you......LEAVE.[/quote]

Well, many reading that better book a plane or  ferry early to avoid the rush because that's about 90% plus of Brits from my experience [:D]

[Bugsy]

Oh veulent, je reste monsieur, s'il vous plaît, s'il vous plaît...........................................[:D][:D]

[Will]

"We are in France so we must speak French...why?"

I'm afraid this is a particular pet subject so in the interests of harmony I have stood back from this discussion. Chief has put it rather succinctly though.

But if you feel the need to ask this question, you will never gain the necessary understanding of French life that will let you get the true benefits of living in France.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Chief"]If speaking French IN FRANCE is a problem for you......LEAVE.[/quote]

It is an interesting thought that if somebody said that about people in the UK (i.e. in a UK context) they would be accused of all sorts of prejudices. If they were in public life they would almost certainly be called on to resign, if on a game show they could wave goodbye to their career. etc., etc.

Ian

[Dick Smith]

Don't be silly. In the context it is a perfectly sensible suggestion - it would be offensive if used against someone who had NOT already expressed dissatisfaction with the country. I agree - if you don't like a place you must have some serious reasons for stopping there.

[Dago]

[quote user="Chief"][quote user="wen"]

 I think this attitiude...we are in France so we ALL have to speak French to the French just encourages the already exisiting discrimination and racism that exists here. And believe me, I have witnessed it here first hand.

[/quote]

Have to say i find your proposition astounding.  As a black man living in England (Born and bred), who constantly has to listen to pathetic diatribe from so called 'in the knows' who constantly bleat about 'Johnnie Foreigner' not even speaking 'our' language and doing things 'our' way, to hear you whine about having to speak French, IN FRANCE, is pathetic and hypocritical. If i had my way, you wouldn't even be allowed to emigrate until you could speak the language of your chosen destination.  If speaking French IN FRANCE is a problem for you......LEAVE.

[/quote]

Sorry Chief but aren't you just making the case for those that 'bleat about Johnnie Foreigner not even speaking our language' by saying that 'if speaking French in France is a problem..then leave' because that would make the statement (not yours) 'If speaking English in England is a problem then you should leave' I speak very poor French, largely I feel because my English grammar is so poor so learning a new language is difficult for me although I do try, do you think that I should leave France? I subscribe to neither of the above staements, I only agree if it is aimed at those who choose NOT to even try.

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/dago49/Dago3.jpg[/IMG]

[Patmobile]

Just catching up on this post so I hope I'm not just going to repeat what someone else may have already said.

Graduating with a degree in French.  I know a few people with such degrees.  They can tell me all about Voltaire, Corneille and even Francoise Sagan, but they don't speak very good French.

In France?  A golfing friend of mine, age 78, tells me his grandmother, a French speaker, was born French in Lorraine.  Then she lived in Germany, then France again, then Germany, and finally France again.  She never moved from the village of her birth.

He himself thought he lived in France, but became a German resident while at school, and spent the last few weeks of the war in the German army shooting at allied planes.  He found it hard to get a French passport after the war.

Confused?  If they don't know where they are, how can we?

Patrick

[Dick Smith]

No, Dago, I think you are misreading what Chief said. I believe that he means that if the idea of speaking French in France offends you (which was the OP's point, whatever she said later) then go elsewhere. Not that if you can't speak French you shouldn't go there or be thrown out. We all know how far a little French can get you if you show the right attitude.

Is it not written, "It will never get better if you scratch it"?

[ali-cat]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]We all know how far a little French can get you if you show the right attitude.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

I know we haven't been here very long - but we have been met with nothing but kindness & help, from all the French people we have had dealings with - from the local Tabac to Orange..

Yesterday the lady in La Poste, even went above & beyond the call of duty.  She has always insisted in speaking English to us - even when we have practiced & rehersed excactly what we wanted!!  We went to re-direct our mail & she kept apoligising that the forms & leaflets were only in French!!  I kept saying it was ok - as were are in France.  She insisted in translating everything & filling in the form for us - even though we understood most of it!!

There was a queue behind us & I felt terrible about how long she was dealing with us - but when we left everyone, who had been kept waiting, wished us all the best with our move!!

 

[Dago]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]No, Dago, I think you are misreading what Chief said. I believe that he means that if the idea of speaking French in France offends you (which was the OP's point, whatever she said later) then go elsewhere. Not that if you can't speak French you shouldn't go there or be thrown out. We all know how far a little French can get you if you show the right attitude.

Is it not written, "It will never get better if you scratch it"?

[/quote]

Point taken Dick, but Chief did go on to say  "If i had my way, you wouldn't even be allowed to emigrate until you

could speak the language of your chosen destination."

seems a bit extreme but no more so than the original post. It will remain a 'hot' subject with more debate to come.

best regards

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/dago49/Dago3.jpg[/IMG]

---

[Miki]

Quite right Dago, perhaps I should have posted it in full, sorry Dick but I do it might have been you who misread it also. The major point was indeed

"If i had my way, you wouldn't even be allowed to emigrate until you

could speak the language of your chosen destination."

That part of the quote, took it one stage further..

There is a point to be made possibly, about Wens original thought but as said, if it happened to her and she says it how she finds, why do people feel threatened that they appear to believe that she has come to the conclusion, that it is all French that are like that and they have to spring to the defence of "THEIR French" ? Is anyone aware that there are good, the bad and the ugly,  the World Over, inc Australia as Wen would be the first to admit I'm sure !

And by the way, a little French can also put you completely wrong in your thoughts. Oh boy, have I seen some horrendous balls ups due to a person thinking they had said something and it was completely and totally wrong. Culminating sometimes, in a lot of work to clear it all up and all because the person thought they knew what was being said and that they were replying with the right answer, rather than admitting they were not sure. All the bisous and ca va's you can muster, will not be part of truly understanding France, I feel myself sometimes like I have got it all sussed here but the next day, on occasion, I feel I am starting from scratch again .