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Does it get better?


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My wife and I are keen to move permanently to France. We already own a house there and have almost finished renovating it.

But the things I am hearing and reading are really putting me off.

From the outside, life seems so complicated in France. Health registration, tax registration, wills, inheritance etc., etc. None of these things seem straight-forward. Life in the UK seems simple by comparison.

Is there anybody out there who can say, "Yes, I felt like that, but it does get better!" 

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I moved from South Africa to the UK in 1994, and although I am a British Citizen I found that relocation anything but straight forward. I did not have a NI number, and I thought trying to get one was a performance. There are things that you just take for granted, often you could not spell these out even if you needed/wanted to, that make life easy that are done differently in different parts of the world. But it did get better! And then I relocated to France - yes, a sucker for punishment as I had to relearn it all over again. I think what has made it seem worse about relocating to France is the language difference. I speak French quite well, but I still thought sometimes sorting things out was a bit of an uphill struggle. But it is worth it, a hundred times over. Incidentally,  I had my car shipped from South Africa to the UK, and I came to France with a car: I though it was easier bringing a car into France (not the physical movement, the administrative movement). I find dealing with taxes so much easier in France than in the UK.
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Health and tax registration - easy, just search on this forum and you will find. Then you just need lots of patience and the opportunity to try out your French.

Wills and inheritance - being a beneficiary is easy, otherwise don't worry you will be dead before it's a problem. Seriously though just search the forum for info and then see a notaire. You have already thrown your hat into the ring by buying a house.

The fact that a large % of Brits move over here and then move back is no reason why you could not be happy here. I would never have left England for Scotland, Ireland or Wales but our life in France is great.

John

not

 

 

 

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[quote user="Prasutagus"]

Life in the UK seems simple by comparison.

[/quote]

It is! It is (I assume?) your culture and your language.

But, providing you speak French (or some French) none of the "setting up in France" stuff is rocket science. There is a lot of perfectly valid information on the forums which get you pointed in the right direction (re-registering cars, sorting health cover, registering with a doctor, dentist, etc).

If you're looking for an intellectually rich and stimulating social life with a new group of like-minded acquaintances, you might have a few problems unless you're within easy distance of a large town / city. If you want to earn a living and are looking for office-based jobs (as opposed to transferring a self-employed business such as general building to France) you will probably have some difficulties. If you are retired on good pensions, you won't.

What are you looking to achieve from your life? Anywhere, not just France. In an ideal world, how would you spend your days, weeks, months... what do you want to do? If you know that, you can start to judge whether your move to France will deliver what you need.

ps: I just realised that you and Iceni should get on well. [:D]

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For us, learning to speak the language was of course important. I had in a previous life learnt to read, write and speak Modern Greek. So I at least had a good understanding of the idea of different genders and verb tables. But we didn’t realise the difficulties faced if you don’t speak the French language very fluently here in France.

 

I suppose I had a notion that because we are in Europe that we would have a choice of speaking either the English or French language when it comes to dealing with the administration. Not so. I would highly recommend that if you are intending to come to France then you must make learning French a top priority. It is well worth enrolling with Alliance Francaise, in the UK, on one of their crash courses, to ease you into the language.

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[quote user="Bugbear"]

That is all part of the fun, just enjoy the challenge, don't listen to the whingers and get on with it.

You're dead for a very long time............................................................[:D]

[/quote]

Bugbear........that's not fair.   I've just returned to the UK after 2 years in France and I don't consider myself a 'whinger'. I have been asked my views and expressed them. I have been positive about some aspects of both France and the UK.

It's a forum, I don't call you delusional because you love France, nor should you refer to the people it hasn't worked out for as whingers.

If I had read more posts from the people it hadn't worked out for then I may seriously have re-considered, just like this poster appears to be doing. Being pre-retirement age and having insufficient grasp of the language to find work in France ( despite all the glorious ideas we had ) has left us over £50,000 worse off than when we started out. Luckily we got back on the UK housing ladder and we're settling in well back in the UK.

It's been an experience I will look back on with mixed emotions. It's marvellous for some and a nightmare for others, and somewhere in between for some of the time for another bunch. You won't know until you get there, but you CANNOT have enough information before you make the move and moving because a lot of people say 'it's just great' is just as bad a reason not to move because of  those who say 'we hated it'

If I had the time again the big thing I would do differently, if I could, would be to rent the UK house out and rent a French house until I was sure it was right for me.......particularly the location. We moved into the French countryside and the culture shock was immense.

If you have been used to having an active social life and enjoy simple and silly things like shopping, cinema, nattering in your native tongue, and need to work, the French countryside is not for you. The men seem to settle better for some reason. ( and before anyone jumps on this, it's NOT because women are simple and silly!!!! )

I wish you luck, but those of us still looking at this forum who have moved back have a moral obligation to share our experiences with those thinking of making the move to help them with the full facts we may not have been aware of before our move.

Bugbear....you're right, we are dead a very long time, but we're also alive a very long time too and being miserable with the life you are living can make it feel a lot, lot longer!!!!!!![Www]

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I think you need to keep a balanced outlook on problems and challenges. This forum is actually quite negative and does seem to dwell on the negative aspects; a lot of "... lost the rose tinted specs ...". In practice different people in different situations and different locations (and even of different days) will have different experiences. 1st time I tried to register with CPAM the individual spent ages trying to find a fault in my E106 and eventually managed and rejected everything. Next time, different person and the entire thing only took 5 mins (plus I speak very limited French). Both visits were fine, and total was only a few hours and now its done. People often go on about how bureaucratic the French are; but this also means that often they are very good at dealing with it.

I think for many the bureaucratic aspects are a small aspect of life and need only be done once (or occasionally) leaving loads of time to enjoy life.

I have found that, whilst I have pretty limited French language skills, this has presented no problems. I never ask "Do you speak English ?" and always try (hard) with what French I have and 99% of the time people will appreciate that and make an effort to understand. Of course there is the occasional individual (maybe in authority) who takes a different attitude - but I do speak fluent English and certainly came across more "negative attitudes" whilst I lived in the UK.

Ian

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Prasutagus - if you don't know what CPAM is you need to do a lot more work before the move. And before anyone jumps on me for that comment, believe me, I know of a number of Brits don't know what CPAM is before they move nor how the taxation worked, planning etc etc.

An example. We met a couple who moved out last May. She had a serious medical condition which required monthly visits to her UK doctor. She also gets Disability Living Allowance.She thought she could transfer the treatments over to France and continue to pay absolutely nothing, as she is doing in the UK. I'm not an expert on this but it appears she was wrong. As a result, although living permanently in France, she is lying to the DSS, has given her permanent address as a UK family memberrs address and has to deive back to the UK every month for her doctors visit and prescriptions. She intends to continue doing this for the future. Having bought a house in France and using up all their funds they are stuck.  I'm not sure how they're going to get round doing their tax returns but one things for sure, they'll be telling porkies.

An extreme case, and I may have got some information wrong, but it demonstrates what CAN happen if you've not done enough research.

The point of this post, in a conversation regarding a variety of health issues after they had relocated to France she said 'what's CPAM?'

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Yes, it is a challenge. People who expect things to be the same as in England or who come running to a forum or a hand-holding agency as soon as something doesn't go according to plan are the sort of people who won't stick it. Of course, that's not the only reason people go back. French life won't suit everybody, though most seem to thrive on it. It is certainly bureaucratic, thought not all bureaucrats are obstructive by any means, and plenty of things work substantially differently from the way they work in England - like buying your house, taxes, health, inheritance etc. But try to get a handle on the French way rather than compare it with England or try to translate things into the English system.

If if you look for solutions rather than problems you should be fine. There are many who didn't have forums like this when they arrived in France, they managed to get it all sorted out.

Vickybear - your example above is not at all unusual, or extreme. Once they do finally have to leave France, and they surely will, for any one of many reasons, they will most probably get all sorts of other shocks like a big bill for capital gains tax on their French house because they have never bothered to become properly resident and it is still treated as a holiday home. So it pays to try and do things properly.

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ian, do you think that, when you say the forum is actually quite negative, this is because, when people are happy, they tend not to think about it but that when they are unhappy, everything "gets to them" and they start moaning?

for example, if we have a good experience (with a shop, with a government dept, whatever), we are just pleased and, apart from mentioning it once or twice, we forget all about it.  but, if we have a really bad time, then it dwells in our minds and we want to tell our friends, our family, the bloke on the No 7 bus.

i read somewhere, years ago when i was still a youngster, that the moment you ask yourself whether you are happy, you cease to be so.

and i think there is something in that

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People often go on about how bureaucratic the French are; but this also means that often they are very good at dealing with it.

 

Ah no they aren't......... sorry but that is the only reply I can give to that little statement. I have been sorting out some stuff recently, only I can't. EACH little functionnaire has their own little idea about what is what.......I'm wondering if that is ringing any bells with anyone else. AND I just cannot get to the bottom of it all. I am going to have to get someone with enough courage in Paris to write and tell me what is what and it have enough punch for the functionnaires here to accept it as being what the rules really are.

 

Deimos, how good or bad is your french after all this time. Because if it is not very good then everything will still be banal. Maybe you don't mind this or don't realise, but how can anyone, even the paysan, have a good deep conversation about anything if the person they are talking to doesn't understand.  I am NOT saying that you are unusual, but until anyone can talk the talk, how can anything be but banalities.

 

France will suit some people. Others and that dream place which would have been a wonderful house for a holiday for maybe a month is just being lost en plein campagne, isolated and lonely.

I would never live nulle part. I would holiday happily in such a place and that would lovely.

Even my village, which had everything we wanted for a young family, now hasn't got enough for me. I need far more people and things around me now. Ask yourself what you really like and what is going to occupy your time. I'm afraid that 26 years of my neighbour giving me a lettuce or a bag of cherries and just discussing how good they are, would not have been fulfilling, I would probaly be in my local mental hosptial, there again, even where I live, so many have been......... just realised that, now that is disturbing.

 

We are all different. Our needs are different.  

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I don't think there is any shame in using hand holding agencies or forums. 

I don't know all the questions yet let alone all the answers.  I didn't assume that everything in France would be the same as in the UK, but I didn't think some things would be so different either, eg expecting my bank card to be sent to my home rather than in the UK.

If there are services that you can use to help you find your way around, use them for as long as you need them. I am still as green as grass about many things in France, but my lack of knowledge is not ging to drive me back to the UK.

Sometimes things are difficult, but this is my home now and where I want to be, so I will muddle through.

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When I moved here I did not know what CPAM was. Nor did I know how to register and deal with tax. I knew I had to and I knew the level of tax I could expect to pay. I knew I had to sort such stuff out but could not be bothered to research every detail from the UK - when it is much easier to deal with when in France.

I think if I had to depend on my local village for everything then I would have gone mad ages ago. I have a range of different activities and clubs and they are not based in my local village (although by coincidence one does happen to be a few kms down the road).

For me the language thing is a matter of never letting language limitations stop me doing anything. If I want to do it but "the language might be difficult" then I do it anyway, manage, meet new people, new experiences and have a great time. People really do drag you in and things (in my experience) are far less cliquey than in the UK. I started gliding a couple of years ago (no English spoken !!) and it was exhausting. Waiting around to fly was really hard as people would continually want to chat about everything , which meant concentrating like mad. Then the flying itself was quite hard with the need to try and understand what I was being told to do, etc. (quite quickly). Had I been a bit more "but I don't speak very good French" then I would be sitting at home all day exchanging cherries with neighbours.

In terms of things I do not realise - it is kind of difficult to comment on that. Any comments like "... but you don't realise that" are a bit difficult to disagree with as if I don't realise something then I cannot say I'm doing it. Certainly I manage, don't exchange any vegetables, have had some heated political arguments. In fact I know no British people over here. I think quite a lot depends on who you are talking to and how much effort they are prepared to make to understand you. If they really want to discuss something with you they tend to make the effort. There is a local anarchist who periodically stops fort a debate about UK royalty. He wants to discuss this and thus he makes the effort to understand.

Not surprisingly I can only really comment on my personal experiences and cannot comment of things I have not realised or am not aware of.

Ian

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WOW!

Thanks everybody - so far... It is, of course, a decision that my wife and I will have to make based on our circumatances, needs, means and aspirations. But I really value all the responses - all of them - thank you. The decision left to my wife would mean we move there tomorrow, but I have to know everything, warts and all.

Please keep your opinions coming...

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[quote user="vickybear"][quote user="Bugbear"]

That is all part of the fun, just enjoy the challenge, don't listen to the whingers and get on with it.

You're dead for a very long time............................................................[:D]

[/quote]

Bugbear........that's not fair.   I've just returned to the UK after 2 years in France and I don't consider myself a 'whinger'. I have been asked my views and expressed them. I have been positive about some aspects of both France and the UK.

It's a forum, I don't call you delusional because you love France, nor should you refer to the people it hasn't worked out for as whingers.

Bugbear....you're right, we are dead a very long time, but we're also alive a very long time too and being miserable with the life you are living can make it feel a lot, lot longer!!!!!!![Www]

[/quote]

Oh dear Vickybear.............Where exactly did I in any way refer to you?

Absolutely nowhere and any comments you have made were in no way being referred to by me. My reference was a general one about people who always see the negatives and from what I've seen from your posts, you don't fit that picture.

I will accept your apology, of course.

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Prasutagus - you ask if it gets worse? From our point of view no, it doesn't , but things change. For example at first we wanted plenty of land so that we could have a smallholding. But gradually the work became too heavy for us. Especially when we had health problems. So we have moved to a smaller place. The only british friends here who might consider returning - two families, one with 3 children and one with 5 - came when their children were small, and are now in their teens. They are struggling to make ends meet financially. In UK there are more safety nets for such families. All our other friends wouldn't dream of going back. As you already have a house in France you must have some idea of the situations you need to deal with. Which ones are you most concerned about?  By the way we do intend to return eventually and have kept our UK house. If you are worried, why not keep yours and rent it out? Pat.

 

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[quote user="Bugbear"]

That is all part of the fun, just enjoy the challenge, don't listen to the whingers and get on with it.

[/quote] 

Having read your post about your son, if you base your move on pieces of  witty one-liner wisdoms,  I’d think you’d be back in the UK before you can conjugate ‘Epuiser’.

Re negative posts, note that one or two so called negative posts in a syrupy minefield of posts (see French Casualty Department as an example) and the ‘Oh France has been great for me so it must be great for everyone so lets not talk about the rest’ come out with their bayonets.

As well as having to deal with the usual issues (sufficient on-going income being number 1), you have your son to consider and you should ask yourself a few questions such as:

1) If he doesn’t speak French, what is his aptitude for languages?

2) Based on your knowledge of the French job market, what are his chances of finding work and integrating into the young community?

3) Is he very sociable in the UK? If so, will he be able to mix easily where you plan to live? The average French 28 year old does not choose to live in the middle of nowhere for obvious reasons.

4) Is your property near good medical facilities?   If he has epilepsy, then you really need to live where assistance can reach you easily – a few kilometres max. Is your home near good public transport? Is he currently relying on you to drive him everywhere? If not, how will he get about if without public transport?

5) In view of him having a life-long condition, have you contacted French organisations dealing with his condition for advice? There may be help and advice available in your region.  Etc. etc. etc.

'The fun' can quickly turn into a nightmare if you do not make the right decisions and take the right steps before you come. I’m, no doubt, one of those considered  ‘negative’ on this forum (though I'm one of the lucky ones having a fufilling experience) but I’d actually advise you not to pay too much attention to the syrupy bunch because if you’ve chosen to move to France, then your love for the country is not in question. However, the success of your stay will be, unless you plan things thoroughly and are fully prepared for the unexpected and your circumstances are a little unusual as you have a semi-dependant adult son.  I think a lot of Brit immigrants ‘manage’ irrespective of their special needs because they have no or little financial worries. Your son is surely going to want a life of his own.

So, does it get better?  Well, that’s entirely up to the individual and their circumstances – original, I know.[:)]

VICKYBEAR, it’s great that you continue to share your experiences. I’m trying to convince my friend who moved back a few weeks ago to contribute but, apparently, she is too busy having a full and varied life (including a REAL JOB – her words).  She is a 40sth who speaks French, loves France and still has a house here but for those who need to earn an income, it doesn’t matter how much you prepare, your brilliant ideas or fluency; the state of the French economy and the often ‘closed’ employment market (specialist sectors in particular) often proves the undoing of many.

Drat! I’m now going to be accused of being negative. I’ll go out and enjoy the Languedocian sunshine. Does that make me syrupy enough?[:)]

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[quote user="LanguedocGal"]

... the state of the French economy and the often ‘closed’ employment market (specialist sectors in particular) often proves the undoing of many.

[/quote]

Totally "off-topic" but there was a recent Royal Bank of Scotland economic report as to the reasons behind Germany's recent economic strength. It almost read like a critique of how things were organised in France. Sort of "Germany seems to have managed to weaken xxx practices..." where xxx practices are something France is trying to strengthen !!

Ian

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Does it get any better?

No reason why it shouldn't, but as others have intimated it can easily foul up if you do it wrong.

My advise (and repeating a lot of what has gone before)

1.  learn the language

2.  do your homework

3.  as Vicky has suggested with her term "culture shock", things are different and done differently, sometimes very differently.  Accept it, adapt to it, adopt it; because continually mithering that "It wasn't like this in the UK","why can't they do it this way?", etc is the start of the road to ruin - or back to the UK if you prefer.

4.  Choose your area to live carefully.  If you are used to living near a town with all amenities, then moving to a romantic cottage in the middle of nowhere is going to pall a little after the first couple of months and will be total boredom come winter.

5.  Don't allow you opinions of the country and area be based solely on the 3 week holiday in summer.  Winters are usually cold (much colder than the UK) and towns can become deserted for the 3-5 winter months (unless you are in a skiing region).

6.,  But most of all, France is not England with a French accent, good food and cheap wine.  If that is the opinion, then disappointment is likely to follow.

 

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On the topic of negativity raised by Ian, I think this is inevitable with most forums appart from those whose members are living with the fairies.

 

By this I mean you start with someone posting a question = they have a problem (even if they only want to know something) = a degree of negativity.

then you get an answer (hopefully), this can be positive or negative in tone - but is basically positive since it is an answer

then you get the "ah yes but", and "but watch out for" comments - these come across as negative - but are generally positive since they are adding to the depth of the answer to the OP's question.

then (if you are unlucky) you get the open warfare "yes it is", "No it isn't" Usually caused either by misunderstanding of the posters or due to the particularly French traite of having the official way of doing things, and the local way - sometimes even sanctioned at high level.

And that of course comes across as nothing but negative.

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Just realised I answered " does it get worse"ie it's ok at the moment, instead of "better" ie it's difficult at the moment. This really illustrates a basic dichotomy in human nature - one group see things as ok and will probably improve eg me thank God and the other sees things as cr*p and will probably get worse. But neither group sees things as they really are, just a change of emphasis. Andy your point about pos and neg arguments is very helpful. Pat.
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Andy, your last post 'has hit the nail on the head' completely.

With the trauma I have both had and seen in life I am still an optimistic type.

On this thread the only point I was trying to make was simply 'if you fancy doing something, then just do it', if it all goes 'pearshaped' so what, at least you've had a go.

There is no nirvana, no magic place where problems don't exist. Its just that france, for us, is currently a nice place to live. If that changes then so will we.

That's all I was trying to say.

Someone once said (I forget who) "That in life, you only regret things that you don't do"

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For the past few days I've been helping a couple who live in France part-time, 50% France/50% UK.  The guy ruptured his achilles tendon the day before they were due to come to France but they still came.

Have had a house here (maison principal) for 3 years.  No GP, no CPAM registration, no UK home so French residents - so this week has been a continual slog, to French hospitals - nasty shock today, no Carte Vitale and bill for drugs alone of E250, hospital bills plus other issues to resolve like registration - and little or no French so need steering and helping throughout the whole process plus transport.

One of the problems that this couple have is that they've listened to the crap advice given by people who, when they reflect on the advice they have been given, have received bad service, been treated poorly because of the advisors approach - like NEVER get your cars re-registered in France but when you hear the whole story, the reason that the advisors had such a hard time is that they tried to impose the English system on the French system and it didn't work so they shouted at the functionairres who just closed down on them.

My point is, do all your homework before you get here, make sure that if you ask for help and once you are here that you get as good advice as you can - remain on this Forum even after you move here because when it comes to health in general and cars and transport, this IS as good as it gets and also get to know the people at the Mairie who can also point you in the right direction.

I'd make sure that you have the CPAM things buttoned down if your son comes with you and would prioritise that for your own peace of mind first.  Apart from utilities, the rest of the things you need to know and deal with will come along and then it's back here for help or advice.

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