Enforced Sunday closing

[Tag]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear Llwyncelyn,

Let's do to others as 'I was done to'. Surely if we follow your approach then we must also ban attendance at football matches, concerts and why not restaurants. After all, they are also commercial. Surely what you say merely proves the right of people to make intelligent choices for themselves rather than being forced to clean the weeds with a knife and fork which we would all agree was a stupid and mindless piece of control freakery. And most of the workers at night, like my daughters when they were students, were only too glad of the jobs.

I do not see what this has to do with the law, just the need to change the top down attitude of certain politicians.

[LanguedocGal]

Mr L,

I have absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with me – I’m always surprised when anyone agrees with me, as it’s such a rare occurrence. However, I stand by what I said in that it’s a little tiresome always hearing about how wonderful things used to be when most of the time, this was far from the truth and I’m not just talking about people on forums.

What you are talking about above refers to inconsiderate employers but in retail, as in all fields, there are good and bad employers (JL and M&S being classical examples of relatively good retail employers).   

In France, the constant need for govt to ‘control’ things is frankly bringing the country to it’s economic knees and Sunday opening issues is just another example of how the unions who represent a tiny percentage of the French workforce terrifies the weak-willed and cowardly govt into submission nearly every time.

As I’m not a Rockefeller heiress (at least not to my knowledge), I assume I’m a worker and have done a variety of jobs starting from work experience at 16 and yes  - in retail too.  Re 1907; if it makes you happier then, I’ll say 1987. In any case, it was a simple reference to indicate living in our times instead of in the past, which I’m never convinced was as glorious as so many like to claim - I have a memory too.

Sorry if I upset you but you should ask yourself – as you now live in France -  how many French people you know actually go to church on Sunday’s (relevant here).  Others have said and I know for a fact myself that Sunday shopping is extremely popular among the French. No one is forcing them to shop on Sundays and what if they went shopping as a family? Is there a 'special' way to spend time together as a family that has to be applied universally?

What about the jobs lost by these incredible restrictive practices in France? What about the employee rights there? The French economy is also important to the quality of the ‘family life’ that the population can aspire to in the future.  

If you want to talk about workers’ rights, that’s another issue but I don’t need a govt to tell me when I can shop or whether I can work on a Sunday or not. I think I’m capable of making that decision by myself like a grown up person.

Why is shopping at 2 am at a London Tesco dangerous?  Don’t know about Waitrose, as I rarely shopped there but what is the relevance? 

When I said that the workers 'would' have been there anyway, I meant that.  These supermarkets are rarely ever ‘closed’ as there are always people behind the scenes filling shelves, bringing in deliveries etc. It’s called flexi-time and shift work.

Mr L, France needs to be shaken out of it’s overwhelming state control and sorry if it sounds like lecturing but this level of control stifles creativity and choice for workers too – that’s my point which you can disagree with of course.

 

Edit: Tag, I saw your post after. Glad there is one person I didn't upset. 

Tresco too - wow! this is my lucky day.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Llwyncelyn"]Please do not try to lecture your views are your views and I do not attack you for holding them.  Please do not attack me for saying that in this world of ours one day or one half day a week when everything is closed  is sanity.  [/quote]

I didn't see LG lecture, or attack anyone. She just gave her opinion.

The only reason anything is shut on a Sunday is because many people (including law makers) used to be practicing Christians.

Now they aren't.

Edit; LG and I were posting at the same time.

 

[Russethouse]

 I agree with LG and frankly I think that retail staff are luckier now than they were  say 40 years ago. My father used to get Wednesday afternoon and Sundays off plus 2 weeks holiday. Now retail staff often can rotate their time off, work 5 days rather than five and a half and have longer holidays. As my father was management he was also expected to prepare for sales, special promotions etc in his own time. We grew up with the smell of large felt tip pens, and piles of sale tickets on the dining table......... How many places now close and expect staff to give up their day off for stocktaking for example ?

.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

My father used to get Wednesday afternoon and Sundays off plus 2 weeks holiday. [/quote]

And everything was closed on a Weds afternoon and Sundays, I bet!

Most working people don't have a non-working someone (in those days I think it would have been a 'wife' or 'mother') to go out and do their shopping during certain hours.

I'm not selfish. I worked for years on Sundays myself, too, but when I worked Monday to Saturday,  Sunday opening was fantastic for me.

Now, as others have suggested, I don't shop at week-ends. I'm lucky as I have 5 other days to shop.

 

[Russethouse]

Quite.

Eventually the town got a MacFisheries supermarket which stayed open and as by that time we had moved to a village my father would take my mother shopping, but on the other hand the grocer still delivered (just pop the order book in the day before) the butcher delivered meat & fish (phone in the morning, delivered in the afternoon, leave the back door open and they would pop it in the fridge) and the baker came twice a week too.

Only Mac Fisheries stocked yogurt though and that was VERY exotic then  !

[KathyC]

I don't know about France but retail workers in the UK don't have any choice as to whether they work Sundays or not, despite the fact that this choice was supposed to be allowed when Sunday opening wqas introduced. Also, many staff are on "minimum hours" contracts where they are only guaranteed a certain number of hours work but can be asked to come in at short notice when necessary to do more. RH, management has always had to be prepared to do extra hours but their pay scales and prospects usually compensate for this. Shop workers may only work 5 days but look at the times they have to be prepared to start and finish; it wasn't like that in your father's day.

I'm always surprised at how many people move to France for the" better quality of life " and  slower lifestyle and then complain when shops etc. are not open all hours God sends. Perhaps it's only our own quality of life that concerns us and everybody else has to be prepared to work these hours for our convenience?

[Tresco]

[quote user="KathyC"]

 Shop workers may only work 5 days but look at the times they have to be prepared to start and finish; it wasn't like that in your father's day.[/quote]

How on earth do you know this?

[Russethouse]

My son works in retail, he works 8 hours, true he does shifts which in the job he is doing at the moment, change 6 - 2 , 10 -6 or 2 - 10. Others work on one shift permanently and many female staff work hours that suit them. (sorry if that sounds sexist, I'm sure there are men that work hours to suit too)

I know he has commented that Muslims particularly are accomodated when it comes to observing and having time off  for their religious festivals which actually suits the store because when others want time off they are happy to work.

This week Jeremy Vine had a guy on his program who was a practising Christian and who owned a small garden centre . He said that we should let the market decide, he will be open Easter Sunday (the business is small enough)

There is a different aspect too. If you allow longer hours, Sunday opening,etc more people get to earn so there is more money to spend which in turn creates jobs......

[LanguedocGal]

[quote user="KathyC"]

I'm always surprised at how many people move to France for the" better quality of life " and  slower lifestyle and then complain when shops etc. are not open all hours God sends. Perhaps it's only our own quality of life that concerns us and everybody else has to be prepared to work these hours for our convenience?

[/quote]

[8-)][8-)][8-)]

How do you equate the choice to trade on Sundays with good/bad quality of life? What about the high unemployment (they certainly have a slow pace of life) and low wages generally in France? Surely these have more of an impact on the French quality of life? Who exactly are campaigning for these supermarkets to close/stay open on Sundays? 

I complain about the lack of choice that exists in these types of situations in France: laws that are often not clear-cut and can be manipulated in order to hinder business and employment.

Moving to France for a slower pace of life? It suits a few immigrants, so let’s keep the French economy at that level and *od the section of the French population themselves who seem to enjoy having this option.

Not sure that this issue is about a few British immigrants moving to France for a slower pace of life. In any case, many of these are retired or semi retired so, I assume, can make their lives as slow or fast as they wish irrespective of whether shops are open Sundays / 24/7 or not for the convenience of the French population.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/economie/20070404.WWW000000285_les_magasins_de_plan_de_campagne_nouvriront_plus_le_dimanche.html

[Iceni]

How on earth did we cope back in the UK in the bad old days before 24 hour and Sunday opening ?  I don't remember starving, just planning.

When I was a lad in the 50s the shops in our local market town were closed on Wed afternoons and Sundays. Closing time during the week was 5.00 or 5.30 except Sat , 4.00.  My father generously drove my mother to market (makes her sound like a farm animal ?) on Wednesday yet expected her to come home, laden with shopping, on the bus.

In our bit of 46 Shopi is open Sunday morns all year (but usually closed on Mon), Leader Price most of the summer and Leclerc for August. Don't know about others as I rarely need new handbags, dresses etc.

John

not

[ianf]

If I go cycling on a Sunday the roads are no longer peaceful in the UK. They are full of Tesco lorries and peeps going shopping. It HAS made a huge difference. Not nice. The sooner I've relocated to France, the better/

[KathyC]

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="KathyC"]

 Shop workers may only work 5 days but look at the times they have to be prepared to start and finish; it wasn't like that in your father's day.[/quote]

How on earth do you know this?

[/quote]

Which bit? I assume that RH is talking about 40 years ago (when she was a child) and shops certainly weren't open the hours they are nowadays. I can't see how you can argue that's not true.

If the French want to change their opening hours to suit themselves and their situation then that's fine by me; I certainly don't think that they should stay as they are to suit my perception of life in France. On the other hand, I don't see why people who've moved here because they like the differences should start complaining because some of them are inconvenient.

When Sunday trading was introduced in the UK, we were told that it was to bring us into line with Europe. As many people's experience of the Continent was holiday resorts, they didn't realise that this wasn't the case. I was on holiday in Germany that year and every single shop closed a 1400 Saturday and was shut on Sunday. It really brought home the way in which the British public had been conned by the interests of big business!

[Russethouse]

Kathy, Shop workers do not really work any longer - the opening times are covered by different shifts of staff. Some staff always work the same pattern - there is a shop workers union and while not all shop workers are members they do tend to often benefit from its efforts.

If there had been no call for Sunday opening or it wasn't popular, it wouldn't be available.

I rarely feel the need to shop on a Sunday but I can understand that if people are working all week and are perhaps looking to make major purchases, furniture, appliances etc then its useful for the shops to be open when people can go together to make a joint choice.

Even if the actual shops were not open I suspect that the big stores would still use that day for deliveries, stocking up etc - its bikes that use our local main roads for timed trials that wind me up - takes all sorts [;-)][;-)]

[KathyC]

RH, didn't mean to imply that the hours worked were actually longer, just that the hours were less sociable and extra shift premiums are rare. Just because there's a demand for something doesn't make it a good thing (anyone for reality television?) and surely a great deal of that demand was fomented by the large supermarkets who had their capital investments (stores) sitting idle for one day in seven.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="KathyC"]surely a great deal of that demand was fomented by the large supermarkets who had their capital investments (stores) sitting idle for one day in seven.[/quote]

Without a doubt.  But it takes two to tango, and I'm quite sure that French people would be queueing up to earn extra cash by working on a Sunday if they could.   

The extent of black market work in France (which doesn't stop on Sunday, btw) suggests that people really want that money.  

And if France is as good to its employees as British people seem to think it is, exploitation will be out of the question, don't you think? 

[Tresco]

[quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Tresco"][quote user="KathyC"]

 Shop workers may only work 5 days but look at the times they have to be prepared to start and finish; it wasn't like that in your father's day.[/quote]

How on earth do you know this?

[/quote]

Which bit? I assume that RH is talking about 40 years ago (when she was a child) and shops certainly weren't open the hours they are nowadays. I can't see how you can argue that's not true.[/quote]

Hi.

Sorry, I mis-read. I thought you were talking specifically about Gays father.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="ianf"]If I go cycling on a Sunday the roads are no longer peaceful in the UK. They are full of Tesco lorries and peeps going shopping. It HAS made a huge difference. Not nice. The sooner I've relocated to France, the better/[/quote]Quite.  You may be able to choose not to shop in the UK on Sundays but you cannot prevent others from doing so.  There is no longer a peaceful day of the week in the UK.  I like the quiet Sundays, but as posted above, what about the poor French who work when the shops are open, what do they do?  I think it must be quite tough for some of them.  Luckily, the small local supermarkets often open on Sunday mornings but their prices reflect it, that's for sure.

[Babbles]

Having worked in retail management doing shifts and working 5 days out of 7 really does have some bonuses, a day of in the week and I got loads done, but it wasn't so hot for my social life and I wanted to work Monday to friday, I got promoted to area level and worked Monday to Friday on balance I think having a day off in the week is better as long as you get one day of at the weekend to catch up with friends and family. Mr Babs used to work in the newspaper printing industry now that really is unsocialble hours and makes retail look like a walk in the park printing all those sunday papers on a saturday night really cramps your life style, but there are loads of industries / walks of life that work really bad hours and are not always recognised by good pay or shift allowances.

[Russethouse]

 You are right Miss Babs, I used to be a childrens nanny when jobs were often advertised as "1 day off a week and a weekend a month" - now that really did wreck your social life ![:(][:(]

[KathyC]

My dad was a postman and I can remember when there was a delivery on Christmas Day! Obviously I couldn't open my presents until he came in from work, so it made an impression.

If we're not careful this could turn into a version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch! ( I used to dream of not working on Christmas Day!)

[powerdesal]

As said by Miss Babs, there are very many people who work unsocial hours, including week ends, public holidays etc. Sunday opening is a boon for them, long may it continue.

After all, everyone wants their electricity available 24 / 7, it doesn't just happen automatically, there are people in the loop. Ditto for Police, Fire, Ambulance, Hospitals, Military, Airports etc etc.

In my working life to date I have probably worked over Christmas as many times as not, similarly in respect of Sundays, in one ( memorable ) instance driving 450+ miles round trip to do Christmas day as Duty Officer in the middle of a leave period.

After all is said and done, you dont have to shop on Sundays if you dont want to.