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Are There Too Many English In Our Hamlet !


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Thankyou, Cooperlola.

You managed to very eloquently say what I have been trying to say in my prolonged ramblings!

The thing is, if we don't try hard to become adoptive French, then surely rural France will change to such an extent that it will be just like the various countries we have left to come here, (presumably because we like the French way of life etc.).

If all countries were the same, mulit ethnic, multilingual etc etc, why would anyone bother to move to a foreign country? (Apart from economic reasons, obviously.)

Aly

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It's a conundrum.  I hope that it goes without saying that I would never knowingly judge a person because of their race, colour or religion.  Certainly, it never affected whom I went out with in the days before I was married if that is any kind of test.

However, although I would applaud anybody who wanted to marry/have a relationship and children/make friends etc with a person from another nation if they are fond of one another - I also love cultural diversity.  I think it's good for us to be able to enjoy people, countries and communities which are different from our own.  It is the stuff of life.  Respect is all that matters in my opinion.  Learn about what makes other people tick, and keep an open mind.  Do what works for you, just so long as it does not trample on others.

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[quote user="RumziGal"]

Who fights against capitalism?   I think it's just talk.   People stampeded to find the cheapest phone operators when the phone system opened up.    They'll do the same with electricity, and with everything else.    Up till now I think they've been very controlled, but as soon as they have the choice, the vast majority will base their choices on their purse, just like the rest of us.

France is perfectly good at globalisation.   There are Carrefours all over the world, there are French jets and weapons all over the place.   They're as keen on exporting as anyone else is.   When they stop eating McDonalds and shut down their foreign supermarkets, I'll believe the talk.  [;-)] 

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Are you serious or does the smiley mean you are making a joke?  As a joke your post is a tad ponderous.  If you are serious, and think that there is actually no one in France, or on earth, who by their actions, or their lives, or their part-time activities fights capitalism, then I feel a little longer post coming on.  If you mean that no one, even those who fight capitalism is able to totally and completely avoid interacting with it, then I won't bother with the post, as that is totally obvious and there is no debate.  I mean, nearly all the "altermondialistes" I know do SOME shopping.  If you think that those who fight capitalism should not use mobile phones with the best deal, then you are just making a point about logical consistency that is true, but not all that interesting.  Even people who are totally capitalist, free market nutters do nice things and non-profitable things for some people.  No one is consistent.   No one can live outside existing society.  So do you really think that there is no one who fights capitalism?  If so, I think you should get out a bit more.

By the way, I agree that France is very far from being the worst coutnry at competing in the global market for more profit.  Just on the arms export front they are number four, maybe five.  They do very well in retail and energy.  Unlike the Brits, they still make and sell abroad a few cars.  And I am told their McDonalds are the most profitable in Europe.  What does that have to do with the people who fight against capitalism?  The vast majority of French people think, as do the vast majority of Brits that not only is capitalism a fine thing, but that "there is no alternative".  There are, however, a few others living in France, who disagree.  All French are not the same.  More I think of it, this sounds like another thread.  Sorry for the diversion, but I just couldn't resist a reply.

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French capitalism - not a subject I know much about, but what about EDF? They have even sponsored a rugby Union competition in the UK. And a historical reference for the original question - one of the earliest recorded examples of immigrants becoming too numerous was in biblical Egypt when the hebrew population became uncomfortably large. A new pharoah came along ( ? Sarkozy?) and ordered the hebrews to be made into slaves. Could this happen to us? [8-)]Pat.
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[quote user="TreizeVents"][The vast majority of French people think, as do the vast majority of Brits that not only is capitalism a fine thing, but that "there is no alternative".  There are, however, a few others living in France, who disagree.  All French are not the same.  [/quote]

Of course.   Which is why I disagreed with the view that "the French" fight capitalism.   You have the patience to be eloquent, I don't, so I'd just say they're gagging for it!

It's just one of the things that make France France, nesspa?   The difference between the belief and the reality.   Their belief in their revolutionary nature is so strong that they get other people to believe it too, but I look around me and I see a population that is conservative, traditional, and that doesn't like change.   Quite sweet really.   

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That'e right Rumzi. You can find a France to suit any argument. There is the republic built on socialist principles, and the right wing diehard capitalist society; the modern multi-national cities and the old-fashioned rural idyll; and so on. I think many of the non-French in France see only the France they think they moved to, in many cases the France they found on holiday, saw on TV or read about in books and magazines. The other bits of the nation they either havent discovered or they deliberately shut out when it doesn't suit them. The real French do something along the same lines of course, they are the past masters at looking after number one, being capitalist when it suits them, European when it suits them etc.

Sorry to get philosophical but I do get fed up with some of the tosh quoted by people who move here and think they are "integrated" but make no attempt to understand how the average Frenchman thinks.

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On the question of whether France fights or embraces capitalism, clearly it's a capitalist economy, but I've always thought it one of the country's greatest attractions that it works harder than most to alleviate and protect its people against the harsher side effects of that system.
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[quote user="RumziGal"]

It's just one of the things that make France France, nesspa?   The difference between the belief and the reality.   Their belief in their revolutionary nature is so strong that they get other people to believe it too, but I look around me and I see a population that is conservative, traditional, and that doesn't like change.   Quite sweet really.   

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I guess you don't get my point.  Its not at all the difference between (the French) "belief and reality".  Its that there are many realities and many beliefs in France, as anywhere.  The one I was trying to point out was the one, in fact quite global in rich countries and poor, which consists of French and other people who are very much critical, opposed to and acting against capitalism.  They are obviously a minority here and elsewhere, but they are there.  Even in Britain.  They live a "slightly" different reality and have quite different beliefs, even though they go shopping, although none of them Iknow go to McDonalds.  I also know that someone who is well embedded in other realities might not even know that anti-capitalist reality exists, and if they find out about it they make fun of it or minimise it.  It is, after all, a bit threatening.  That wee poll indictates that there is something a bit different with the French (for which I love them dearly), but it is also the case that some of the so called critics of the free market live IN it and also benefit from it.  There is no "elsewhere".  There is no "dropping out".  Contradictions and tensions in life are quite normal.  The people who "don't have contradictions" or don't see them are either being dishonest, or they just can't see well.  And I do agree that overall, in spite of that poll, in the majority, the French are very conservative, afraid of innovation, not keen on risk taking, and happy with what is.

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The Modern French Economic Model's prayer

Give us all the advantages of globalisation but our govt has to protect us from all its evils.

Give us the advantages of capitalism but our govt must protect us from its tribulations (other countries can have those).

We support the advantages of a planned economy as long as our multinationals make enough to sustain us.

We want an alternative model to capitalism but will do what’s necessary to accumulate wealth and avoid paying as much taxation as possible towards the state.

Sorry Pangur, but I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in much of France’s often quoted social economic values/model. No doubt that even a few French people I know would also have been part of that 36% if questioned, however, see how they live their lives and strive to build a future for themselves; there is no difference from those in other countries. I’m talking about those aged 25-50.  Really no difference at all.  In fact, the only factors that make some appear more ‘laid-back’ is the crushing lack of opportunities and freedom in France, born out by the fact that so many do extremely well in ‘anglo-saxon’ countries.

I have no doubt that there are a few true socialists out there who believe in this philosophy and would be willing to live by their word, but for the majority, it’s all talk born out of a profound fear of the worst aspects of capitalism. We all have these fears without justifying them by hiding behind some hifaluting ideologies to prove an intellectual/moral high ground.

An alternative to the the worst elements of capitalism would be great, however, France is just as capitalist as the rest of them but perhaps just a little more hypocrital than some.

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It's hardly a high-faluting concept, and it doesn't mean you want to exist in some kind of Marxist utopia and have to give up your worldly goods (or pretend to).  The statement is about whether or not you believe that having no regulation on the market is the best way forward or not. 

There is a balance that can be had in society.  It doesn't have to be totally one or the other.  I, like many of the 25-50 year old French I have met, believe in a strong state.   I don't want to live in a country  that believes only in the free market, and that has faith that the market will regulate everything.  You couldn't pay me to live in the US for example - and yes, I have worked there.  I have no problem paying taxes, or living in a high tax country with good public services and I strongly believe that if government does not keep a handle on business, it is to the detriment of society.  An alternative model to free market capitalism is what is currently happening in many parts of Europe - people who don't believe the free market is the best way don't necessarily mean that they don't want to have good jobs, nice homes, yearly holidays etc etc.  It just means that they don't want big business and the dollar to be the only measurement of success or to leave regulation up to big business.  Obviously there are a lot of problems in France that need to be addressed, and there is such a thing as over-regulation but the French I know don't want the same economic system as they have in the UK or the US.  Sure, they'll go to London and get the money and experience but stay in the UK to raise families?  All the young London French I know fled the UK as soon as the first bébé arrived.  

To get back on track: there are no English in our hamlet - is this a record?

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[quote user="Pangur"]It's hardly a high-faluting concept, and it doesn't mean you want to exist in some kind of Marxist utopia and have to give up your worldly goods (or pretend to).  The statement is about whether or not you believe that having no regulation on the market is the best way forward or not. 

 I know, and my point was that the French are hypocritical with regards their declarations on 'systems and models' and their real lives. Also, which country has no regulations of its market?

There is a balance that can be had in society.  It doesn't have to be totally one or the other.  I, like many of the 25-50 year old French I have met, believe in a strong state.   I don't want to live in a country  that believes only in the free market, and that has faith that the market will regulate everything. 

I want a WORLD where every hungry person is fed, free healthcare is available to all, and homes for everyone etc etc. No joke and no irony intended, but now what? Easy to make the statements and have the desires but how do we all actually live our lives?

You couldn't pay me to live in the US for example - and yes, I have worked there.  I have no problem paying taxes,

Good! And the French State will take what you have to offer and more to cover the proportion of the ‘’natives’’ doing their best to avoid paying.

 or living in a high tax country with good public services and I strongly believe that if government does not keep a handle on business, it is to the detriment of society.  An alternative model to free market capitalism is what is currently happening in many parts of Europe - people who don't believe the free market is the best way don't necessarily mean that they don't want to have good jobs, nice homes, yearly holidays etc etc.  It just means that they don't want big business and the dollar to be the only measurement of success or to leave regulation up to big business. 

In which country is the dollar and big business the ONLY  measurement of success?

Obviously there are a lot of problems in France that need to be addressed, and there is such a thing as over-regulation but the French I know don't want the same economic system as they have in the UK or the US. 

This is one of their favourite soundbites (a popular one) without actually coming forward with solutions to maintain and fund this alternative (have you been following the elections?). Perhaps the UK, US and others will follow if they come up with a financially sustainable one instead of just pontificating and pointing fingers at what’s awful elsewhere.

Sure, they'll go to London and get the money and experience but stay in the UK to raise families?  All the young London French I know fled the UK as soon as the first bébé arrived.  
I grew up in London too so I know that this does not even come close to the whole picture. Unless, of course, over the last couple of years institutions such as the Lycee Francais now have 100% non-French in-take.  Do you know how difficult it is to get a place in a Creche in many parts of this country? Perhaps some of your friends ran back to be closer to their families too. This is not uncommon and in their place, I may have done the same.

To get back on track: there are no English in our hamlet - is this a record?

I don’t live in a hamlet. I’d go stark raving bonkers surrounded by all that tranquillity and quaintness – whether there are too many Anglais or not[:)]


[/quote]

Edit: tried to reduce the font size, but no luck

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LDG is this mindset exclusive to the French?  I think not.  It's the reason I would not want to be a politician for all the tea in China, or anywhere else for that matter.  Everybody wants perfect public services, just so long as they pay less for them.  Better services, lower taxes.  Globalism with protectionism in place to defend their own little bit of the economy.  They want the cheaper products in the supermarkets yet weep crocodile tears at the conditions under which those in third world countries work to produce them.  Not a problem I would be able to solve, could you?

As an aside, in the small town in Kent on whose rural outskirts I lived in the UK, I knew 4 French people, all of whom had lived there for more than 20 years and who had kids and had settled down there.  Two were teachers, and two ran small businesses.  They contemplate maybe returning when they reach retirement age, but none has actually decided to do so.  They think of England as their home now.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

LDG is this mindset exclusive to the French?  I think not.  It's the reason I would not want to be a politician for all the tea in China, or anywhere else for that matter.  Everybody wants perfect public services, just so long as they pay less for them.  Better services, lower taxes.  Globalism with protectionism in place to defend their own little bit of the economy.  They want the cheaper products in the supermarkets yet weep crocodile tears at the conditions under which those in third world countries work to produce them.  Not a problem I would be able to solve, could you?

[/quote]

Cooperlola, as always the voice of reason.[:)]  I've said before that I would not last a day in French politics. All those suits would do my head in.

No, I do not think this (protective) mindset is exclusive to the French but what seems very much exclusive to them is this intellectual, almost holier than thou, self-righteous belief that their system is so much better than everyone else’s (especially the 'anglo-saxon' economies) whilst fully profiting from the advantages (and subsidies) of the other systems that they – and those who have bought into their propaganda – constantly trash.  I’d hate to think what would happen to my and many regions of France if the PAC subsidies stopped tomorrow. Many people here will have to eat dust to maintain their ‘traditional’ way of life so loved by retired immigrants and tourists. Traditions can be retained by adapting to the changing world. If one adapts voluntarily, there is a greater chance of saving one’s heritage and traditions than if forced to do so by economic necessity. In the 80s, the UK had to adapt or die, hence the brutality of it all. 

I don’t think there is a perfect economic system but I think there are bits of good in many models (including the French. UK, US, German, Swedes etc etc). However, they all need to be funded somehow. The French and their ‘ideological allies’ have a supercilious way of demonising other economic models (I hear it all the time) and that I do think is extremely daft, especially in view of the cr*p state of theirs.

8.4% unemployment?  Mon oeil! And it’s wearing a rose –tinted spec.

 

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I and my family refuse to buy Sports brands like Addidas, etc.

 We do not buy branded clothing for fear of causing distress to a person with poor employment conditions in the 3rd world. 

 We do not buy processed foods.

We always try to support the small local businesses rather than the huge supermarket chains. 

 We rarely travel by aeroplane or ferry.

We do not change our car, except when necessary and then it will be 7th hand! 

We NEVER buy anything originating in America.

We, along with everyone 25-50 I know (except Brits) would NEVER consider eating in Mr Do's. In fact the local people here consider that business to be a huge joke.

I could go on and on, but I suppose I'm boring everyone now,

While on the subject of capitalism (which I suppose we are) I think the policy of the Eu of artificially controlling prices of food to be every bit as evil. Do you know that the EEC exports foods ( that were traditionaly grown in African countries ) to African countries at a lower price than they are able to produce them, therefore killing their economy.

I'm getting really annoyed now, so I'm going

Aly

Aly

 

 

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I concur with a lot of what Charlotte has said, I do the same things myself  but usually for selfish rather than ethical reasons.

I cannot see that she has said anything to raise the question about how she supports her family, only the choices she makes.

Even in the current commercial world one can support a family without Adidas, Macdonalds and designer labels.

Or have I missed the point?

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Of course it is easy to buy ethically if you can afford it, I guess was WJT's point?  Or did I misunderstand you?

 Adidas, McDonalds and designer labels are the tip of the ice-berg.  Companies like Walmart (and their UK off-shoot, Asda) are more pernicious.  Because, hey, if you are trying to support a family on a very low income, who's to tell you you should shop at Lewis's because they have an ethical policy for both purchasing and selling?  Won't you buy your kids' clothes cheaply if you can? Are you going to really worry about the origins of the products you buy?  The way these companies treat their staff?  The conditions in which those who produce the clothes are expected to live?  The way small businesses around these stores are killed off because they cannot compete on price?  No, you aren't because you cannot afford to think in this way.  You must buy cheaply in order simply to live.  And who are we to tell these people that it should be otherwise?

I'm OK so I can afford to be ethical - I earn enough to be able to factor this into my choice of products and the places I buy them from. I'd pass 50 Asdas to shop at a Co-op or a Waitrose.  But sadly, not everybody has this luxury and there's the rub.  All we can do, like Ali, is be as ethical as we can as individuals within our means.  It's a little bit much to expect those who cannot afford to, to toe the line when they have themselves and their own to care for too.  All we can do is keep bashing away at these arguments in our own little ways, and hope we make a difference in our own little corner of the planet.  To have a greater influence than this, one needs more stamina and commintment than I am afraid I, for one, have.

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Don't like anything American  eh! Got a computer, Microsoft software, scrap it. Most drugs were developed by Yanks. Teflon, American, plastics, artificial fibres, internet( developed at least), you better scrap those too.  Those labels at least can be made accountable precisely because they are visible. It is the back street sweatshops that really exploit their workers, includiing in UK. France pays very low wages to keep factories open otherwise they would go to Rumania where they need the work. That clapped out old car - it does more real damage to the environment than a modern regulated engine and is probably less safe. Those local stores - no choice, high fixed prices, stock can be out of date. Get real, exploit your hypermarkets, don't let them do you. One could go on!
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Oh and by the way, MacDo in France is a franchise. The meat, salad, buns, desserts, staff and customers are all French and they are very popular indeed. What would you replace them with? Airfilled baguette sandwiches?
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No argument with things American, per se, myself.  At least Mr Gates gives back some of his millions and tries to contribute something.  The Walmart bunch are a different matter altogether.  Humph.  Take a couple of hours out of your life and watch "Walmart - The High Cost of Low Prices"  - fascinating and disturbing.
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